A customer at a hydrocarbon refinery wants to kick out his current provider. The existing cameras are at least 6 years old. Most look bad, but that is to be expected with the age as well as the level of workmanship involved. However there are signs that the environment there has taken an extra toll on the equipment. The customer wants to replace some of the fixed cameras with PTZ cameras. I have never installed a PTZ in a refinery that I can recall. Anyone here have any tales to tell about that kind of environment and how well a PTZ would do?
The existing cameras are at least 6 years old. Most
workmanship involved. However there are signs that the
to replace some of the fixed cameras with PTZ
here have any tales to tell about that kind of
ExtremeCCTV has a raft of "all-environment" cameras which we carry. They're not cheap but they'll still be working until you record the Second Coming... :^)
First you will need to find out if any of these cameras fall within the hazardous location areas of the facilty which means they have to be explosive proof designed first and foremost. and all cabling etc has to meet the NEC requirements.
Well I thought of that. Bosch Gen 3 cameras had a pressurized model we used, but I haven't gotten a good answer from the rep on a Gen 4 equivalent model. I was going for at least one VG4-524-ETE1R model. I was not worried about "needing" explosion proof housing since I don't think it would be an issue (with the Aiphone LED and maglocks and strikes etc already there) in the area of deployment. However if there was an accidental release of something nasty from the refining area, without a pressurized dome the gas could enter the sensitive areas of the camera dome and cause problems.
It is weird all of the things that get recorded that you never imagined could happen, let alone be recorded. It is creepy when people get seriously hurt or even killed and it's all there in ones and zeros. That is one part of an integrators world I never expected and never expected to be so bothered by. But to answer the second coming question, I'll say if I catch Jesus on an autotracker then I'll post it here.
provider. The existing cameras are at least 6 years old. Most
workmanship involved. However there are signs that the
wants to replace some of the fixed cameras with PTZ
Anyone here have any tales to tell about that kind of
Before you get too worried about explosion proof cameras, definitely find out if any of them will be in an explosive atmosphere. Those do exist within a refinery but they don't comprise the major portion of the environment.
In any case, Extreme also makes explosion proof camera units. Here's a link:
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We get a fair number of orders from government and military buyers. They rarely know the hardware -- just the make and model number they've been asked to source. One buyer called for some explosion proof mafnetic contacts from GE Security. While I was taking her information, she asked, "How can these things withstand an explosion?" :^)
messagenews:s5coi.60$ib7.9@trnddc02... Ummmm ..... just because there are other devices in the area that are not rated as explosion proof, doesn't mean that they were installed legitimately. I'd check anyway.
I've never installed any of that type of equipment, but I can't tell you how many times I've found non plenum cable in plenums. I'll always tell the client that there'll be additional cost for plenum wire, and if they say to install otherwise, I make them sign a waiver that they were informed or .... it's in the estimate that they sign off on, that the installed wire is non-plenum, by customer request.
Having a customer sign off on plenum wire does not relive you of liability if there is a fire etc. As some one who investigates fires part time for a living you do not want to put your self and your company into such a comprimised posistion. When i investigate fires for insurance companys the first question always asked if it involves anything electrical is.
"Does the equiptment as installed meet the codes in effect at time of install yes or no"
"does the fact equiptment was or was not installed to code effect its perfomance in this case yes or no"
Any time we installed in an office or store front location, we would check first. During construction there are invariably a set of prints. A couple of minutes spent looking at what others are doing will go a long way toward protecting your own work.
At times when working for the owner or tennant and a GC is doing the construction, the client won't not even know what a plenum is, let alone whether his ceiling space is one. If the HVAC ducts are already in place when you begin your wiring (and they really should be since HVAC guys will cut any wires that happen to be in their way), just look at the setup. If there's only one set of ducts feeding the area, the ceiling will likely be a plenum.
In a competitive market you don't need to load your bid down with plenum cable if it's not called for.
Also, someone said he gets the client to sign off on using non-plenum cable. That's no protection for the installer. The customer is not the arbiter of code.
It may help drive home the seriousness of why you're insisting on the more expensive wire, rather than just as an up-sell, and cause the customer to rethink cheaping out (not likely, but it's there).
It also gives you a little protection from the CUSTOMER, when the inspector comes back and says, "Nope, this wiring won't pass, it's not plenum-rated" and the customer either hits you with "Why didn't you tell me?" and/or wants to be difficult when you charge him the materials and labour to completely remove and redo all the wiring you've done already, ON TOP OF the original install.
The best alternative is to simply state up front why a particular job requires plenum cable. If he balks, walk away. You don't need that headache.
Besides having to deal with an angry customer later, by installing the wrong cable you'll make the inspector think you're dumb. In future every time you call that AHJ for an inspection you're going to get the "fine toothed comb" treatment.
Your suggestion is to violate code by using non-plenum cable in places where you know it is required. Permission from the client does not excuse you from code constraints. It will also gain you a bad re with the AHJ. If a customer asks you to do something you know is wrong, explain why it's wrong and that you don't want trouble with the inspector. Also explain that they will not get a CO if they use the wrong cable. Anyone in his right mind will see it your way, pay you to do it right and be happy that you saved him a lot of unnecessary expense plus headache. Any customer who can't see that is someone you don't want as a customer.
We get calls at least once a week from people starting home day care businesses. In many states they are now required to install fire alarm systems, even in a private residence, before opening for business. The alarms are basic -- pull stations ate all exit doors, strobe / horns in the common areas and strobes only in the bathrooms. At least once a month someone calls asking for a 110VAC strobe/horn and pull stations, expecting to jerry rig a fire alarm system. I always explain why that won't pass code, tell them what they actually need and explain how to wire it. Most are glad to get accurate information once they realize their original plan would have been a waste. A very few insist they just want to "get by". I decline the sale. People like that cause more trouble than it's worth and I don't need the sale enough to bother. Neither do you.
I'm not trying to insult you, Matt. But give this careful consideration. Do you really want to waste your time dealing with a customer who is too cheap to pay you to do the job right? Imagine how much more trouble they'll be when you ask for the final check.
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