NFPA's Creation of Security Standards/Codes

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There are different reasons these groups write codes and standards and it makes me wonder what is the insentive for this particular go around. Is it false alarm prevention? The industry already has a good program and the results are impressive. An Association that has been writing codes and standards for the fight against loss of life and property from fires for, how many years, now all of a sudden has the answers for the security industry? With the way these were written, it is easy to say that they are a little out tune with reality, which again makes me wonder what their insentatives were to get this done without including the industry. Even if the manufactures could comply, who is going to enforce this. In the fire industry you have fire inspectors and third party verifyers, but who would be the AHJ in the security world. The electrical inspector? They have absolutely no knowledge of design and application for this diverse field. Would it be the police department? They don't even want the dispatch responsibility, let alone have the required knowledge. Seeing how this industy is so diverse and not as cut dried as the fire industry, who is left to be an AHJ? Could it be a third party verifier? NFPA themselves are not going out in the public doing inspections. Hmmm.....so who is left out there that is trying to make an absolute killing on holding everyone hostage until they join their club. The same ones that are charging mega bucks each year, so that you can get the **required** third party verification? I refuse to mention their name out of total disgust for their motives. They have already made it public that they are out to control the security industry in the same fashion that they have been controlling the fire industry (a very stupid egotistical statement). At who's expense, I ask? Unfortunately, these type of things will continue to exist as long as the majority of the State Associations, which are really the only voice for the majority of the industry, has remained so complaisant and dependent on the "Johnny Come Lately" actions of the NBFAA. I am afraid the NBFAA have earned the title of "To Little To Late" on many issues over the past several years. The NFPA should stick to what they do best and don't get into other areas that may be related but yet so different. If in fact that I may just be right about who the real driving force is, being that third party verifier, the NFPA should realize that if you go to bed with dogs, you will wake up with fleas.

Bob4Secur

Probably.

I suspect the idea, ill-formed as it may be, is that the AHJ could simply read the code and suddenly become qualified to determine if an installation is in compliance.

In some towns the responding officers already issue advisories as to the probable cause of a given false alarm. This is usually done without the officers ever gaining entrance to the protected premises. One has to wonder how they imagine they can tell from outside the house that there's a spider inside a PIR motion detector.

Of course not, but if there's an opportunity to create another revenue stream from the alarm industry, they might just try.

Hmmm indeed. Can we say "UL"? Imagine the increase in revenue if UL, through the aegis of NFPA could somehow trump the burglar alarm industry with a requirement that all installations be issued a certificate. We're probably talking $billions here.

Except on a national basis, there is not even a permit requirement in most areas and it would not be easy for the cities to start one. They don't have the budget, manpower, software, etc. to administrate it so therefore the code/standard would be collecting dust.

installation

I suppose but what would that gain, which again brings me back to questioning the insentive NFPA has to do it in the first place. The publics best interest?

Again, no experience other than reading what someone has written.

One might think that, however, the money collected doesn't go to the PD as it should. It ends up in the general fund of the city. The PD struggles with a twindling budget and general fund makes sure there is good fire works display on the 4th. Go figure!

Bingo!! Doesn't take rocket science.

Oh, I can really see the electrical inspectors getting in on this...sheesh...half of them out here can't intrepret the existing code as it is...how will they ever deal with skinny little 22 ga wire?

The PD? Another oye-vey there. They have told some of my customers that their false alarm was caused by a low battery....this is as I am pointing to the screwdriver pry marks on the rear kitchen door!

Someone wants to make money, not benefit the client or the industry.

Contractor's licenses are the same bullshit. I pay 600 bucks a year for a contractors license, + license bonds all that crap...so what happens when I report a contractor without a license...absolutelyfuckingnothing. The only way they will do anything about an unlicensed contractor is IF the buyer complains...and why would he complain if he's able to hire an unlicensed contractor who doesn't have legal overheads...licenses, bonds, licenses, more licenses, tax licenses, more freeking licenses than you can shake a stick at. I have to have a stupid tax license for every damn town I do business in (currently 20) and every month we gotta fill out all that crap. Sometimes I think it's better to be a trunk-slammer that just does good work.

struggles with

Crash,

It will be the building departments--the same procedure we use now when installing fire alarm systems. You will take your blueprints with your security systems on it, fill out a form, pluck $90 down on the table (more or less) and then their plans examiner will look over your blueprint. It will be the plans examiner who will make sure that you've complied with NFPA 730 and 731. This is where compliance begins.

If it passes, you are given a call to come and get your permit. When you get there, you will fill out a form and plunk on the table your $50 base fee with so much per 100 sq. foot or so much a device. When you are done with the job, you call and a man might come out to look over the wiring job you just did. Now, that man may very well be the electrical inspector. The electrical man will come out to make sure the wiring is installed right and he may also be the one to make sure you put them where the blueprints say they need to be. That is all he will do. He will rarely make a judgement call on placement.

On the fire side, once the job is done, the fire inspector, be he from the FD or the building department itself, comes out and you have to do your thing, testing each device to make sure they work, as well as the NAC devices. I guarantee you, it will be the building department in most cases and I doubt the PD will have any part of the process as they are likely to use the same procedures and governmental departments they already have in place.

On the UL side, if UL and NFPA do what they have done so far on the fire installation third-party certification issue (which is to sell third-party certification of all fire alarm installers to those AHJs who will listen and go along with them) they will sell municipalities and county building departments, licensing departments, etc. on the same third-party certifification. As you know, they don't come out and inspect 100% of the systems they certificate. Best estimate would be

I am not passing judgement on all of this, mind you, only telling you how this will play out in my estimation. There are many other factors to consider, but if you have a state license or state fire certificate and you expect to work in a jurisdiction where a UL third-party certificated installer is required, you won't be doing any work there.

My question to you is this, "will NFPA 730, 731, and all of what I've just described actually improve the professionality of the security industry?"

I'd like to hear from those who agree with it as well as those who do not. When and if I write this story I must provide both sides in the best way possible and allow the reader to make up his/her own mind.

Thank you for all your help!! Al Colombo

Excluding fire...

This is all fine and dandy in theory however;

Many many homes we do security for, we never even see a blue print, and if we do it's 10 minutes before we are running wire. Security guys are the low man on the totem pole, we are the last to be granted the bid, the last to have contracts signed, the last be called when something needs to be done, the last to get paid.

Something like this will kill anyone working for residential tract-home builders. Submit plans, pull a permit for every home, submit for inspections (and have to be there?)...this will absolutely kill reasonalbly priced alarm installations. And, what about pre-wired-only homes?...the prewire alarmco is gonna pay for plans, permits on a job that he probably will never finish the trim-out on? I don't do tracts or prewires anymore (thank god), but I know the drill. This would easily double the price of systems.

Crash, the NFPA 731 only pertains to commercial, industrial, and institutional. It does not apply to one- and two-family dwellings. Even still, Bob Worthy brought up a good point that really does make this entire document seem questionable. Open access to blueprints and other documents, if true, will make this an especially dangerous document as criminals will have ready access to the "what" and "where" of detection.

With that said, there are already municipalities who require blueprints of security devices along with fire, public address, and other low-voltage systems. This is, of course, the opposite of good security where blueprints and other submission documents are made available to members of the public.

I will be investigating this issue on a local basis via several municipal and county building departments. If I can get in to view a project that I had nothing to do with, then you know this is a really dangerous issue. I'll be sure to update everyone when I have more information. If anyone else has any experience in this area, or happens to care to try their own hand at this in their own locale, please let me know the outcome.

Thanks!

Al

Al

Ah! Thanks for that clarification. Public records of security systems...hmmm.

blueprints