Napco system questions

Having worked with DSC, Napco, Honeywell and several other brands, I can assure you that DSC's stuff is the flimsiest I've seen. Their panels bend like an empty soda (er, "pop") can.

Yep.

Agreed. When people pay for a custom installation, they just want to know that it works and how to use it. I deal with a different breed of client. I encourage my customers to read the specs on several major brands we sell before we go into brand selection. Once they've had an overview I discuss what they actually want to protect (how many doors, windows, motion detectors, etc). That's when we discuss any special needs they may have. If I'm advising the client to use Napco (I don't always, just most of the time), I explain how Napco's features will affect their use of the system. This often clinches the sale simply because the panels can do so much.

Yep. The default setting with Napco keypads is to scroll through "open" zones when the system is disarmed. This can be defeated if desired though.

No doubt about that. Napco offers two different keypad genres. The standard "RP" series allows the client to select Interior On/Off and Delay/Instant. The newer "K" series have Home Away options (easier to use but not as flexible). All Napco keypads can also be set for 1-Button Arming. There's also an "Easy Exit" feature that allows someone inside to trigger a brief countdown and exit without disarming.

If the client triggers an "exit error" (the most common type of false alarm, according to at least one SIA study), Napco can be programmed to restart the exit delay. This is part of the SIA recommended anti-false alarm features.

So is Napco. "Observe if 'Ready' LED is lit. Enter code and press 'On' button. When you get back enter your code and press 'Off' button."

I don't doubt that for a moment, Frank. The problem is, "simple" isn't always the same as "better."

Because you're selling installed systems, this is no surprise. We're working in differnt ends of the spectrum.

As you know, I'v been involved in that aspect of the business, even from the manufacturer's perspective. Regardless of snide comments from certain individuals, I've been more deeply involved in fire alarm software development than anyone else participating here. Programming fire panels, while more critical in some ways than burg systems, is only more complex on the large scale projects. Many small to mid-sized fire systems actually have fewer programming options than many high-end burglar alarm systems.

I have no intention of allowing the thread to degenerate into anything less than a discussion of opinions on products. I would be interested to hear how you would replicate my "Orthodox" systems using DSC hardware though. If it can be done, I'll be more than a little impressed. Nothing negative implied there, Frank. I really would like to hear if there's a way you know of.

And all of the above featurs are available on the DSC panels (and have been for years) at half the price of a typical Napco or Ademco system. This is what I meant by "feature rich".

We usually program our DSC systems to "quick exit". The keypad counts down to the armed state once you "set" the system (as do most common alarms). If you happen to open and close the exit/entry door before the expiry of the exit delay, you'll instantly arm the system. DSC has "quick keys" for such mundane things as "away" and "stay" arming, "chime" and "reset".

DSC and Paradox just need the code (to disarm), one button to arm either "away" or "stay".

Most of my clients want both. I figure the "better" comes with "service". :-)

Check.

That goes without saying.

As I stated in another thread, you're going to have to provide the parameters again. Include the holiday dates, etc.

However it is not the superior product, Napco panels are very good but I wouldn't call them the best and apparently neither does the rest of the industry since every other brand outsells them

Robert only knows how to download them, he knows nothing about any other brand out there including those he sells.

If it makes them feel closer to God, that's fine with me. Years ago I was working on a system for a Jewish client on a Friday afternoon. It was close to sunset and the lady of the house invited me to stay for dinner. After dinner I remarked to her (I don't recall my precise words): "It must give you great pride to carry on the traditions for another generation."

She replied, "Actually, it's a pain in the ass." :^)

That's reasonable but I took another approach. I considered it an interesting challenge to devise ways to accomodate their needs using electronics. In the process I was fortunate enough to develop a good relationship with a somewhat well-to-do segment of the community and that didn't hurt either.

OK.

Not many can auto-arm on schedule *if* there has been no activity (motion) for xx hours.

Some systems didn't include motions and glass breaks. Others (most actually) did.

It can't be done at all with DSC's modules. They don't offer that level of flexibility.

DSC has no way to know that a given Wednesday is the last in a given month. In fact, they don't have an option for the xx Friday either.

$100 to Moffitt Cancer Research Center. Actually, how about we both do that and call the whole thing a draw?

Agreed.

If McCain had won it would have been cheaper to buy a couple of US states.

I never disputed that.

I don't think the Napco panels you used "back then" provided "if" and "then" programming either. I think you're referring to a Magic Module.

Once the power to glass breaks and motions is interrupted and the contacts bypassed, any system that employs them will "degrade" to the contacts you've provided.

Ahhhh... but you can wire relays to bypass lots of stuff.

No... But then Elk's Magic Module has often provided the means to do so. I'm not "up" on Napco that much, but I figure that the panels you used back then couldn't have done this "out of the box" either.

OK by me. I would still like to see if I can make this all work with DSC's product as a base, though. I've never backed down from a challenge!

No "Magic Module" was used. That was an obsolete ELK product which probably could have done the job. I used a lot of MA-3000 systems until the Napco Gemini series came along. Both generations support the programmable relay board but the P3200, P9600 and X255 are my favorites.

One of the nice things Napco does (and DSC doesn't) is provide a means to arm over open (devices powered down) zones and then activate same when they become "ready" later. It's a features that has to be used very carefully, on a per-zone basis but it can be really handy for this type of app.

Relays, yes. Try the "xxth Tuesday of the month" trick with DSC.

I *assume* the MM could do that. However, it's out of production and I never used one so that remains an assumption. In any case, it's definitely not "out of the box" for either brand.

They could and did.

Kewl. You figure out which modules you need and how to program the system to do it and I'm in for the C-note.

Yep ...........Frank ...... they did and they do. Beginning with the

3200 and 9600 panels. Yes you need the 3008 relay boards but ......... that's it.

However, I hope that unlike the Radionics line, (that was way ahead of their time) Napco doesn't let the rest of the industry catch up with their feature rich panels. Some are finally able to do things that Napco could do a decade ago.

Strange how they still haven't figured out how to send anything more than 7 CID or SIA events

Strange such an expert doesn't realize there are 8 -- not 7 -- alarm types. Napco decided to use the 8 most common alarm signals: Fire, Panic, Holdup, Gas Heat, Auxiliary and "24 Hour". This is always followed by the zone ID, with which any competent CS is able to display "Burglary: Zone 27, Left Rear Window" or whatever else is needed. The Napco panels can send the above 8 Alarm types plus Alarm Restore, Trouble and Trouble Restore. As well, Napco will report Openings, Opening After Alarm, Closings, Conditional Closing, Late to Open, Late to Close, Cancel codes, System Troubles of every type, A/C and System Battery trouble and Restore, RF Battery trouble, etc.

DSC allows the panel to send different codes for every zone. The problem with that is the results are non-standard. You can mistakenly program the DSC system to send a fire alarm from a burglary zone or vice versa. One of the main points of Contact ID and "SIA" (technically, they're both SIA formats but there's no need to quibble) is to standardize the signals sent for each alarm condition. You want to have any panel reporting a Burglary condition to send only the codes which indicate Burglary. The Contact ID format does allow panels to report various sub-types, such as Burg on a Delay Zone but few panels actually use that and, judging from what I've seen during takeovers, most installers don't even know how the full code set. Honeywell panels do make use of the full code set, but it's their format so that is to be expected.

Too bad it can't seem to send high temp, low temp, waterflow, loss of heat, loss of air flow, low CO2, Gate Valve Sensor, low water level, pump failure, 24 hour non-burg, foil break, freeze, Interior burg, perimeter burg, entry/exit burg, outdoor, near alarm like DSC.

on and on and on

You would have to turn off SIA or CID auto-reporting to do that and you can easily do the same thing with Napco which btw doesn't seem to have a SIA or CID zone auto-reporting

Few as in Napco doesn't however DSC does

I seriously doubt Napco had much choice, only so much you can cram into a processor

And it's kind of funny you listed 7, you forgot Burg

Sure it can and I already explained how but you continue to pretend not to understand that. However, neither the Napco Gemini systems nor your beloved DSC are commercial fire alarms so waterflow, loss of air flow, pump failure, etc., are irrelavent (not that you didn't know already that).

As always.

The problem is that with DSC you *can* turn off auto reporting, resulting in the very real probability that someone will send a Burglary signal from a Fire alarm zone. Napco can send reports in SIA and CID. Programming is a snap. In fact, when you select the zone type, Napco automatically selects the proper report code. That you likely didn't know.

The reality is that Napco's panels are orders of magnitude more powerful and more flexible than DSC's stuff. Arguing that because DSC has fewer options it is therefore somehow "better" is ridiculous. Arguing that DSC has the ability to send reports for commercial fire while no sane installer would ever use DSC for commercial fire is worse.

It's in the memory chip -- not the processor. However, Napco offers tons more features and programmable options than DSC.

Yep.

There are many other signals that I didn't list, you also forget that those panels can be used in other markets or not as commercial fire alarms. In the case of Napco it doesn't matter if it's a 1632 or a commercial fire MA3000 you still cannot send any of those listed signals.

And there are many reasons why you "can" turn off that feature, namely to send additional events not allowed with auto-reporting. Aditional events that Napco can't send at all

You conveniently missed all the non-fire signals DSC is capable of sending, I find it interesting that in areas where Napco may have an advantage you trumpet it loudly yet when a rather important feature such as event reporting is lacking it suddenly doesn't matter. I suppose it isn't important to someone who once had a central station in his den but I assure you in the real world it is.

Oh, you forgot those?

Yeah, sure.

Nor do you need to. However, the Napco has so many features and options that are simply unavailable with DSC that this is the staw you're holding onto. Do feel free to continue harping on how Napco's residential systems don't send commercial fire signals thogh.

Yes, such as erroneous signals, fire on burg, etc. Marvelous.

And you conveniently ignored the fact that DSC's systems are simple and feature poor compared to Napco. Instead of accepting that you harp endlessly on DSC's one feature. How about coming up with sonething substantive for a change. Naah. That won't happen.

Napco does have numerous advantages over DSC beyond the fact that their hardware is better built. It does not allow you to modify the eight alarm signals though. Big deal. DSC loses on several hundred lines and wins on something that really doesn't matter (however, you continue to ignore the fact that any CS in the country has the ability to display very specific zone data based on the signals Napco sends).

I've checked the GEM-EZM8 installation manual and can't locate how to make the EZM modules beep so I can locate them. Can you tell me more about how to activate this beep feedback feature?

I am in very serious restraint right now and will yield to Jim to help this fellow.

Les

Put it into a trouble condition.

Maybe delete all the expanders?

Doesn't help if its using keypad expanders though I don't think.

Never had that problem myself.

Since the EZM's are wired back to the panel keypad connections, just remove either the green or yellow wire from the keypad bus terminals and the EZM's will begin beeping when they lose communication with the panel.

TAA DAAAAAAA!