Napco system questions

Long time customer moved into house containing Napco 8-zone Panel, two GEM-RP1CAe2 Keypads, and all windows and doors contacted, several CO's, System Sensor SD's, motion detectors, and six or eight zone modules positioned adjacent to the panel mounted in the basement.

Due to a lack of time to inspect the entire system on all floors, I do not have enough information to prepare a proposal to replace the operating system with one which she is familiar, or to tell her to keep the existing system; hence the need for a few answers from you Napco installers.

The Zone modules I assume are Napco's 8-zone units. I have a copy of the zone list, which lists 96 zones, a few of which are spares.

Since the panel (forgot to get model number, but was installed within the last two years) is 8- zones, how are the zone modules configured? Does each contact, CO detector, Motion detector, get home-runned to the zone module adjacent to the panel, or do some installers mount the zone module close to the windows or doors, for example, and run one cable to the panel?

Or can the output of an 8-zone module be fed to another 8- zone module, before it finally gets connected to the main panel?

Do all the zone modules connect to a specific set of terminals in the panel, or are the outputs of the zone modules connected to one of the eight zones?

Though she has been instructed by the company that installed the system, she still says the system is too complicated, and does not think the Keypad is user friendly. Her previous home contained a Caddx/GE NX8E panel and 8-zone LED Keypad.

She would like to switch to an NX8E system again, but I told her that she would need two LCD Keypads, but in terms of operation, all else would be pretty much familiar to her.

If the devices on all levels of the house are home runned to the basement zone modules, then my work of converting to GE would be relatively easy. If there are some zone modules mounted on other levels of the house, with only the outputs homerunned to the basement, I will tell her to keep the system.

Also, is there a way that I can determine if the system is connected to any home-automation devices? I do not want to replace the zone modules and panel, only to find later that one or more home-automation devices don't function.

Thanks. Charlie

Reply to
chasbo
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What is this... the White House? Unless by a "few spares" you mean 60, how many zones could one possibly use for a house. Really though, how big is this place?

I would have a very close look at the system and make sure it'll work with the new panel. I'd especially be concerned about it's power requirements. It would be ridiculous not to homerun everything in the house to the main panel area.

Although I don't know what the limit is for either of these panels as far as number of zones, I'm going to guess you've hit it or are getting close to it. You could also try panelguides.com if you don't have the Napco manuals.

I just hope the wiring in the panels is all neatly laid out for you. Have fun :)

- Chris

Reply to
CH®IS

Hi Chalie,

Much of what you are asking are things that would have been done as decided upon by the installer but I'll give it a try.

The panel that you are talking about is probably the Napco Gemini

9600. That is .... if you are accurate in saying that there are close to 96 zones used. The basic 9600 is an 8 zone panel which can be expanded with EZM 8's ... 8 zone expansion modules. The GEM-RP1CAe2 keypads also can be used as zone expanders. Four additional zones per keypad. Exactly how they are wired is kind of hard to say but the EZM's must be wired into the four wire keypad bus. Kepads and EZM's can be wired in series or in parallel to the keypad bus and thus can acutally be mounted anyplace in the building as long as the four wire keypad bus is there. From that EZM-8, eight zones of the system can be terminated there. Each EZM is given an address by the use and placement of jumpers located under the cover of the EZM modules. All the zone expansion devices must be addressed in sequence so by interpreting the placement of the jumpers in each EZM module will allow you to determine which module corresponds to which 8 zones in the system. The zone expanders in the keypads are addressed at each of the individual keypads. You can get installation instructions from Napco's web site along with user manuals.

How the zones are wired would have been up to the installer. Most desireable is a separate home run for each device, but hardly anyone does that. Usually powered devices are wired per zone. Most of the time installers will group windows in a particular room to one zone. Maybe doors might be on seperate runs also. But it's up to the installers, how it's done.

From your description it seems that all the modules are near the main panel.

Whether there are home automation devices on the system or not ... if there is no additional relays or modules attached to the panel, my guess would be no.

I don't understand the reason for changing the panel. If her old panel was an 8 zone ...... any manufacturers panel .... and she's trying to compare that to an installation that requires almost 96 zones .... it's not going to make any difference WHAT kind of new panel you replace the Napco panel with ........... she's STILL going to have a problem understanding it. You can't compare an 8 zone panel to a 96 zone .... ANY .... manufacturers panel and think it's going to be just as easy to operate. I can understand that if you are not familiar enough with the Napco panel to explain it to her,.... but to just change it out .... at HER expense .... to a panel simply so that you CAN explain it to her .... just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do .... to me. Either learn the Napco panel or see if you can pay someone who knows the system to explain it to her, while you pick up the monitoring. I'm sure someone would take a $100.00 to spend an hour or so explaining the system to her ...... properly.

That is .... if you have the dealer codes to get into programing .... etc.

I've been installing Napco for about 30 years and I never have a problem teaching anyone ..... including elderly people ( that is .... older than me. ) how to use it.

Also, doesn't she have a monitoring agreement with the installing company? If so, she might be obligated to complete the contract with them before she could change companys ...... anyway.

You didn't say where you are located. Maybe someone here is close enough to you to help you out.

Reply to
Jim

There is an Altronix power supply adjacent to the panel. Don't know exactly how it is used.

Per the 96-z>> the zone list, which lists 96 zones, a few of which are spares. >>

Reply to
chasbo

Thanks for the detailed response, Jim.

Money is no object here. She and husband and child moved to a bedroom community north of Boston a few weeks ago. Their Boston condo, at the low-numbered end of Commonwealth Ave, is on the market; and real estate at this location goes for very big bucks.

There are only two Keypads in the house, one near the entry/exit door, and one in the master bedroom on the second floor. To determine how the various doors/windows, etc. are configured with the zone modules, I will need to re-visit the house.

Regardless of the number of zones, I can program the NX8E so that when she leaves the house, she simply pushes the EXIT key, arming the entire system. When she returns she enters her code.

At night she would push the STAY key, which would arm the system and automatically bypass one or more interior zones.

These two actions are what she finds easy to do. Does the Napco keypad offer the same features? Or does she need to perform additional procedure with the Napco pad?

Do installers typically mount the EZM8 modules in a closet, or under a window, etc., rather than home-running the 8 cables to the EZM8 mounted close to the 9600 panel?

Reply to
chasbo

It sounds like she has a Napco P9600 system. Don't replace it. There are very few systems that are even as good, let alone better than the one she has.

That's correct. The modules are the EZM-8, Napco's standard 8-zone expanders.

Every feature of each zone can be independantly programmed. In the ideal situation, each sensor is on a separate zone, making it possible to precisely identify the point of intrusion. Likewise, servicing the system is enhanced as you can tell exactly which sensor or loop has a problem.

This varies from company to company. I've installed hundreds of these systems. On large projects we usually located one or more EZM-8 modules near the panel and the rest were spread around the home, close to each concentration of sensors.

The zone expansion modules, like Napco keypads and other databus devices, can be home run to the panel or daisy chained along a master run. We usually used the latter approach. Sometimes we borrowed a technique used in fire alarms, running a 4-conductor cable from the panel to the first keypad or module, on to the next and so on to the module furthest from the panel. From there we would run another 4-wire circuit back to the panel along a different route. This made the system "fault tolerant" up to a singlt cut through the circuit. When wiring during construction where other tradesmen sometimes do "bad things" this can be a real job saver.

The modules connect to the same 4 terminals as all the keypads.

If you study the user manual and properly teach her to use it, she'll likely change her mind about that. I've taught end users not just how to operate the P9600 but even how to install it. The RP1CAe2 keypad is easy to understand once you learn to use the "Function" key.

She'll need to replace not just the panel and keypads, but the exp[ansion modules as well. Also, note that the RP1Cae2 keypads have built-in 4-zone expanders. If these are being used, you'll need to rewire those zones as well.

Tell her to keep it. If you want help understanding it yourself, feel free to call. I'll be happy to explain more about the system and you can then pass it along. She'll probably stay with you for a long time if you save her a bunch of money *and* teach her how to use what she has.

The P9600 supports X10 directly, using a GEM-X10 kit. It also can be connected to a PC running home automation software (HomeSeer, for example) via the GEM-RS232 kit. If there's a GEM-RS232 kit in place, it will be easy to spot. There will be a grey cable plugged into the 6-conductor port on the fron of the main circuit board inside the panel.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

I've done residential systems with more than 80 zones plenty of times.

There are many situations where home running every sensor is not the ideal solution. Napco zone expansoion modules are designed to be located anywhere along the databus.

Assuming it's a P9600, the system can handle up to 96 zones. There's also a bigger brother, the X255 which can handle hundreds of zones.

Agreed there. :^)

Reply to
Robert L Bass

The P9600 will do the same thing. If you call, I'll be happy to explain in detail how to set it up. Also, if the master code is still in the panel (printed label on the mnetal cover which protects the CMOS chip), you can use Napco's Quickloader program to test, diagnose and service it. The software is a free download. If you need help using it, I'd be happy to teach you. It takes about 30 minutes to program a large system from top to bottom.

Napco can be programmed to arm using a single keypress. If no door is opened, the system will arm in "stay" mode (no motion detection). If a door is opened during the exit delay, the system arms normally.

She can do it with one keypress if she likes.

They can be mounted anywhere along the databus. Precisely where varies from installer to installer and from one premises to the next. There's a way to make the EZM-8 modules beep so you can locate them.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Considering most of this isn't powered afterall, it may not be part of the system (the CO's may change that though). Sprinklers, door bells, vacuum system, etc.?

If it is, I would expect to have a wire from the power supply to each panel (assuming the zones at that panel need power), supplying power to those zones instead of the panel.

That all makes sense right up until you mention 63 windows. Actually, the 2 sump pumps and the 8 CO's seem a little much too. I'm guessing this place could be turned into a hotel if you really wanted to.

On second thought, 3 motions? Must have been a cat farm in there.

- Chris

Reply to
CH®IS

Now that is a nice feature. Hopefully others will do the same at some point (DSC, pay attention). It's always fun to do a service call on a place you've never been to with new owners who have no idea what an alarm panel is other than that thing beeping by the door.

- Chris

Reply to
CH®IS

Gentlemen: Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Very informative. I will re-visit the house, take a look around, and most likely advise her to stay with the exisiting company, and suggest that she call for another instructor for Keypad training.

I'm too old and near retirement to take on the learning curve for Napco products. I've been in this business for forty-six years, started when there were only ten companies in the Greater Boston area; many interesting stories to tell, could write a book or two.

My favorite tale:

I'm sitting at my desk one morning in the 1970's, when one of my employees comes up from the basement shop where he was building control panels (yes, and many of these relay-based panels are still out there doing thier job), stopped at my desk to inform me that he was not feeling well and wanted to go home, that he thought he might have the flu.

I reached into my top drawer for an oral thermometer, gave it to him, and suggested that he place it in his mouth for awhile, and come back in a few minutes to see if he has a temperature.

After about five minutes or so he returns to my desk with the thermometer in his mouth. He passes the themometer to me; I read it.

107 degrees! "Peter," I said, "You're dead - and still walking! You must have held this over the soldering iron, right?"

Charlie

Reply to
chasbo

Yep. I get a lot of calls from people whose alarms are "ringing" and they have no idea how to operate them. Usually it's someone who bought a house with an existing alarm. I ask them which control panel they have and almost invariably they describe the keypad. Napco has had these features for many years. I doubt DSC pays attention to anything other than what Tyco says.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Did that guy move to Hartford a few years later? He sounds awfully familiar. :^)

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Actually DSC remains one of the most feature rich alarm panels out there when you compare similarly priced panels from other manufacturers. It's a heck of a lot easier to program than Napco.

Reply to
Frank Olson

I kind of agree, but not entirely. I suspect it's mostly "easier" because you use it more often than Napco. I've programmed so many Napco systems that I can (and often do) walk a customer through programming a system without even opening the program on my PC.

OTOH, the few DSC systems I ever programmed were so simple (there were less options) that they could easily be configured from the keypad. Even after many years working with Napco, I never program them from the keypad.

As to feature-richness, Napco has (I forget) 61 or 62 individually selectable per-zone options. That's 2^^62 possible ways to configure each individual zone. There are hundreds of options, selectable and adjustable features, timers and so forth for the system as a whole. I don't believe DSC's residential panels even come close.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

No. He stayed in the Boston area; passed away several years late.

Reply to
chasbo

Yeah, I know what you mean.

I've known several people in my life that I thought had passed away several years too late ..... also.

Reply to
Jim

Well I've used both quite a bit and Frank is correct, DSC panels are much easier to program than Napco....or Honeywel, or Moose, or FBII l for that matter. Napco obviously recognizes this if you look at the changes they made over the last few years concerning keypad programming which is something that 90% of installers do. And last I checked DSC didn't come with 2 different program manuals depending on what keypad you have

And in the time it takes for you to pull up Napco's software and connect to the panel I'm out of DSC programming showing the customer how the system works. In a typical installation most of the defaults work just fine. DSC's download software is far quicker and easier to use than Napco's (who still haven't figured out how to make a decent interface), I'm sure your "team" is at the ready to fix that.

It sounds like you haven't played with DSC in a while. It helps to play with the stuff instead of just listing it on the website

Reply to
mleuck

Ouch! :^)

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Translation: DSC panels are simple and feature poor by comparison.

Since I primarily sell to DIYers, that's not an issue for me.

what keypad you have...

Correct. Napco makes manuals for each of their keypads. The user manuals describe how to operate what the system has in place rather than one generic manual for all keypads like DSC.

Radio Shack panels were quick to "program" too. They also had almost no features.

Actually, DSC's software is among the slowest on the market. It's also a royal pain getting around the GUI, which was apparently designed by a team of monk... er, we won't go there. Napco's first attempt at Windows compatible software was awful. In fact, we did discuss working on it with them. They went there own way and, after a few tries, finally got it right.

I've dealt with DSC for a number of years. Their panels are simple to program because they don't have the features many better models have. Feel free to claim whatever makes you feel good regarding my experience. We both know the truth, though you'll never admit it.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

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