Looking to purchase alarm system - suggestions?

Two words - Staple gun :-)

Reply to
no wires showing
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Frankie, Try to do just a little bit of research before slamming nationals,or dealers for nationals. Price should NEVER be an issue in security. QUALITY! This isn't a dining room set, or lawn sprinklers. These people are looking for Life Safety Devices, and shopping on price is not a wise move.

"Oh we've had Joe Blow Alarm Company for 15 years and never had a problem. Whenever the alarm goes off they call right away"

What's wrong with that statement? Simple. Joe Blow's response time for False Alarms is on the money, but Joe Blow's system falses too damn much.

"Well my friend has a Joe Blow alarm system, and they never had trouble"

Do we know if Joe Blow's system is functioning properly? Does Joe Blow really tell his client's to test their system weekly? Does Joe Blow jump zones rather than repairing faulty devices? It only takes one incident to destroy a national's reputation but Joe Blow skates. Why? Because Joe only has 200 accounts when the national has over half a million. Nationals need to be right 100% of the time or they are hammered by small dealers. Look at Bass. Think of the people he has suckered over the years. No problems with some of his installs because he jumped zones. You don't think Bass was ever referred to someone because the existing sucker never had a problem? Bass isn't all by himself in the shoddy business society. The difference is Bass was busted time and time again in this forum, but I'd bet money to this day there are people who still think their system from the local guy (bass) still works fine. Wait until they find out that heat detector isn't connected.

See if the Central station is U.L. Listed, and I.Q. Certified. Make sure the installing company is also licensed & I.Q Certified. As Jack stated 90 some odd percent of all signals are false alarms. The I.Q. Certification Board's #1 goal is the reduction of false alarms. Joe Blow Alarm Company can always offer a better deal than the next guy because Joe Blow Alarm Company doesn't use quality equipment, fire-rated wire, and doesn't answer to anyone. Joe Blow can use that $2.00 per month monitoring station that ass nuggets like Bass use. Joe Blow won't offer a client a system relocation. All Joe Blow can do is tell you why someone else is no good. Fact is, if Joe Blow Alarm Company was that damn good then Joe Blow Alarm Company would be bigger than they are, and have awards to show just how much better they are.

Yap yap yap until the cows come home but the proof is in the pudding.

Stop advising people to eliminate choices with blanket statements. Look at the post from RHC in this thread and see if you can spot a problem with "local service". RHC went on vacation (which is great.... more power to him) but who was left minding the shop? Someone who in his own words doesn't fully understand the industry. What happened to any potential service issues during that time? Who took care of the customers? Was it someone who was fully aware of the industry, and someone who knows how to handle any service issue? How long should a customer wait until their system is functioning at

100%. This isn't a pot shot at anyone Frank, but this isn't the Goodwill Society either so if offense is taken so be it. Most of us in this industry are in it to protect lives. How safe does Mrs. Customer feel when her alarm is on the blink and that "reputable local dealer" is 2,000 miles away wiping bugs off the windshield? If the local dealer has another local covering for him then what does that say? It says the installing dealer wasn't really the best because another local dealer was just as good as him. Or does it say "well customer, settle for second best because my one man show is on the road"? It's sad how "advise" (Canadian version) is spewed out about who is good and who isn't when the bottom line is you don't really have a f****ng clue if you're right or not. Having a few beers with someone, or trading emails doesn't make them a reputable dealer, nor does someone listed on your website have a reputation that you know for fact is good. All you do is spout off hearsay, and in this business that's just irresponsible. I've been a local dealer, and I've been a dealer for nationals. Were my installers any better when we didn't have the national shingle?

(BTW - Fuck you Bass in advance for your future comments. I could out install your slob ass with a Yankee drill, a dull bit, and both arms in a sling).

I've cracked jokes about my installation abilities over the years but I can guarantee you you'd be hard pressed to find someone you'd rather have install or service your system than me or any of my techs. Mark Leuck and I crack jokes about the millions of phone calls I've made to him with questions but what we never talk about is the reason being that I service DSC, Moose, AT&T, ITI, Ademco, Napco, DS, Radionics, MyAlarm, and on and on and on. All of my training has been Baptism by Fire. I don't sit back and read a manual so I can post answers in a newsgroup. I get a call today for a panel I never worked with and by tomorrow I have it repaired. And as Mark can also attest to I am not alone in this area.

Do you think all locals immediately become inept once a national hands them a shingle?

Rojas services for nationals and was also a dealer. Is he on the "dark-side" of installers now? Bob Skinner was an ADT dealer. How shoddy is his work? How about Bossman? He's a Monitronics dealer. Does his work suck? Are his clients screwed?

How solid is your advice now Frank? How solid is your "atta boy Frank" now RHC? Stop bullshitting people already with your nickel and dime scare tactics about nationals, and start worrying about your own credibility because with the advice you offer you're both in desperate need of some.

Don't like what I am saying? Remind me tomorrow to pretend I give a shit.

Reply to
no wires showing

I don't believe in "gouging" the customer, if that's what you mean. And $15.00 isn't unreasonable and provides a very comfortable margin. The fact that it's below what everyone else is charging is probably what bugs you. I run into that all the time. :-))

Reply to
Frank Olson

Most houses are prewired here...at least the new ones anyway. With open basement ceilings, most alarm wiring is run there. The odd second story keypad or smoke is 1-up through two closets that line up with each other, or

2- the customer hires some grunt to run wires into the attic up through the plastic pipe which usually goes from the basment to the attic ... or 3- you pass up the business to someone who IS willing to do attic work (most other companies...)

With 850 customers, I'm at a point where honestly I don't care if I get another account. I only take new installs to keep my son busy, since I'm paying him a decent salary. I either pay him, or pay the government thieves at Revenue Canada.

It's a pretty bad state of affairs when a business person doesn't want to expand due to excessive taxation (even with a professional accountant advising....)

RHC

Reply to
R.H.Campbell

Ya lazy slob!!! :-))

How is being "just as busy" unfortunate?? First of all, I intend to live forever. That means I've gotta keep up my upper body strength (so I can negotiate roof trusses in the tighter spots), eat lot's of carrots (to maintain my 20/20 vision), maintain my internet connection to keep up with all the latest product releases and information and throw a few "jabs" at RLB every now and then (who I also understand plans to live forever), upgrade my computer regularly (so's I can play all the newest games), and keep updating the firmware in my ELK M-1Gold because eventually I'll be able to engage the "transport" command and "beam" myself to a service call (instead of driving all the way across town)... :-))

Reply to
Frank Olson

We try to avoid words with "CON" in them here (politicians are an exception though). :-))

Reply to
Frank Olson

He has to. That way people can pass him using the road shoulders on either side. :-))

Reply to
Frank Olson

You mean you haven't received the latest release note from Elk?? The transporter interface "ELKTREK-1M2" is scheduled for release in June, 2275. I can't wait!!! :-))

Reply to
Frank Olson

Where have I "slammed nationals or dealers for nationals"?? We do work for "nationals" on a regular basis. There's no way I would "bite a hand that feeds me". That's RLB's style, not mine.

I believe I said that (only in not so many words).

How many of the "falses" are user related in your example, though?? What's to keep "a national" from experiencing the same level of falses from a klutzy user??

Most people would interpret a statement like that to mean:

- They're always "there" when you need them,

- Their equipment is top notch,

- They've never had a break-in (or the authorities responded to an attempt at one)

Do we know "the nationals" is??

Checked your keypads lately?? It says "test system weekly" on most of them.

Do the "nationals"?? Crummy installers and ditzy service techs are also employed by "nationals", you know. I've met my fair share, thank you.

Wrong. Both the "national" and "Joe Blow" (using your example of "we've never had any trouble") would stand behind the equipment they sell and "make it right" with the customer on any "one incident".

The "Nationals" deserve the bad reps they got a number of years back when they introduced the "low down" and "free" alarm "packages". Any local Dealer savvy enough to see that this type of system didn't really address a customer's security concerns could capitalize on it. Many people that got "sucked in" to purchasing such a lousy system and then wound up having an "incident" would be asking "why didn't you provide me *this* level of protection when I first signed up?"

You comparing Bass Home with a "national" now?? He's a parts pusher who doesn't provide service, or installation and still claims the CS he's using is "UL Listed".

Twelve at last count at the BBB (and rising).

I'll take your word for it. I've never seen one of his installs and probably never will.

I'm sure he was. I understand he was "big" with Jewish Community.

Like I said, I can't comment on Bass providing "shoddy service". I've never seen one of his installs. I *have* seen the competitions though.

"Busting his balls" in the forum isn't the same as getting nailed for "shoddy workmanship" or "unlicensed activity" in your local area. There's been a couple of instances where both has happened to one of the "big three" here in Vancouver (ISTR the CEO of Tyco got "nailed" recently).

Right. So what method does "the Board" recommend you use to reduce false alarms caused by a klutzy end-user?? Shoot the f**ker?? Cut off his hands??

Excuse me?? We onliest use the bestust relays and high quality chrome plated pull chains.

Is that anything like asbestos covered steel supports that had a "two hour" fire rating??

I always answer my phone... when I feel like it.

We use third party monitoring as well... They're ULC listed, and their staff are all SIA trained.

I would in a heartbeat!! "You wanna move this equipment to where, Mr. Customer?? That'll cost ya about $300.00 plus airfare, hotel, and entertainment!"

Well thank you, Joe... errmmmm... I mean Tom...

Not if the owner (in this case Joe Blow) decided he wanted to concentrate on providing good service and value for money (like Bob Campbell). In Bob's case, the business "grows" by referral and he can "pick and choose" who he wants to do business with. I'm sure that his son is going to have to make a decision sooner or later to hire addtional support staff and service techs. Besides, when "Joe Blow Alarm Company" gets to a certain size, they usually wind up selling out to a "national" for a "sweet-heart deal"... :-))

When the cows come home you have to milk them first before you can make pudding.

I don't think I did...

Yep. That problem's covered though (in RHC's case). When Bass goes on vacation the whole store goes to s**t.

Ummmm... His son??

Heh... He's also stated that he does most of the installs. I figure he probably has good trouble-shooting skills as well. Besides, there's always the "cell phone"...

About two hours (I figure)...

No offense taken... and none given...

Awww... give me a break... Nothing I've said hasn't been said already. Check out:

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Heh... I've never listed anyone on my website by "reputation". And I've never "spouted off" hearsay.

Nope. I think I've already alluded to that.

You forgot to mention "both legs in a cast".

I seriously doubt you'd be able to repair/program a panel without first reading it's manual. I don't think Mark would tolerate many phone calls from Dealers that require answering a question that's already covered *in the freakin' manual*. Not reading the manual is pure laziness. Posting stupid questions in this Newsgroup when you've got the manual in front of you is equally lazy.

Yep!!! :-))

Hey!!! We do work for "nationals" too!!! I guess that means Robert's been right all along... I know nothing about alarms... :-))

'Bout as "solid" as this post (which looks more like an example from RLB's poison keyboard more and more)...

Write me when you start making sense and have actually *read* what I posted, OK?? Till then... "Below me"... :-))

Reply to
Frank Olson

Oh Yes!...The picture is very clear now.......

Reply to
Norm Mugford

That would be a tough one. It isn't tracked separately at the PD's. I am afraid the number of DIY and Pro installs are so far apart that it would be hard to compare and I don't really know what percentage of DIY's are monitored as compared to those that are local or that simply page someone. If I had to guess, although I am sure there may be some talented people that are very capable of installing a security system, on a percentage basis, I would think there would be more false alarms from a DIY install, if for nothing else, simply the learning curve.

Reply to
Bob Worthy

That's definately a difficult question to answer and I certainly don't have the answer. And, my experience with DIY installs is small since most installations are non-monitored and I don't deal in "toy alarms". But the very few that do come to me must be inspected carefully before I hook them up. I can honestly say that everyone I've inspected is at least as good as the poorest professional installation I've seen (and granted, that's damn poor). But far and away, I find they are usually overengineered to the extreme. The guy has made all sorts of cross connections outside the panel which he didn't have to do; however, the joints are soldered (something that a professional almost never does, since B connections are completely reliable). Mistakes he's made are simple to correct since everything is usually external, and the contacts are usually the commercial grade units mounted externally on the door.

So what they don't do on one hand (proper positioning, B connections, internal wiring), they make up for by using techniques which by themselves likely are as secure as they need to be (external door contacts which are hard to mess up compared to hidden contacts)

Bottom line, the "jury's still out" on that question. But DIY installs are probably not worse than the worst of the professional installs when all is said and done, and in most cases, at least as good, and in a few cases, far better.

(ain't that a mouthful of nothing.....:))))

R.H.Campbell Home Security Metal Products Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

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Reply to
R.H.Campbell

Frank Olson Jul 9, 4:28 pm show options

Newsgroups: alt.security.alarms From: "Frank Olson" - Find messages by this author

Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:28:11 GMT Local: Sat,Jul 9 2005 4:28 pm Subject: Re: Looking to purchase alarm system - suggestions? Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | View Thread | Show original | Report Abuse

"nationals" on a regular basis. There's no way I would "bite a hand that feeds me". That's RLB's style, not mine.<

Frankie you've been slamming nationals for years. Denial isn't a river in Egypt.

to keep "a national" from experiencing the same level of falses from a klutzy user??<

Properly training the end user will reduce false alarms. Quality equipment and fire rated wiring will also help. While some nationals are absolute shitbags there are some who demand much higher standards than any local I've ever seen. If it came down to a choice between Joe Blow and Protect America I would go with Joe Blow but if you're comparing Joe Blow to say Westec then Westec is where my money is at.

- They're always "there" when you need them,

- Their equipment is top notch,

- They've never had a break-in (or the authorities responded to an attempt at one)<

Frankie customers don't have a real clue as to the quality of their service, and customers hate admitting they made a bad choice.

never had any trouble") would stand behind the equipment they sell and "make it right" with the customer on any "one incident".<

I've seen more locals than nationals walk away from trouble systems, leaving the customer high & dry.

they introduced the "low down" and "free" alarm "packages". Any local Dealer savvy enough to see that this type of system didn't really address a customer's security concerns could capitalize on it. Many people that got "sucked in" to purchasing such a lousy system and then wound up having an "incident" would be asking "why didn't you provide me *this* level of protection when I first signed up?"<

Those "low down/free systems" have done more to bolster our industry than any other form of marketing. Crunch the numbers and see the amount of systems installed since the inception of these low down systems.

doesn't provide service, or installation and still claims the CS he's using is "UL Listed".<

No ya numbnut I was comparing Bass with a local dealer. How many of his victims even know they were duped by him? I saw the clowns installs, and he made the crappiest installer look like a pro.

seen one of his installs. I *have* seen the competitions though.<

I'm not sure how many installs you have seen but from my experience the local dealers here need some sort of policing. Guys like Jack Stevens are a dying breed (at their age they're on borrowed time too). Locals try to compete with nationals and most I've seen can't do it without taking shortcuts.

"shoddy workmanship" or "unlicensed activity" in your local area. There's been a couple of instances where both has happened to one of the "big three" here in Vancouver (ISTR the CEO of Tyco got "nailed" recently). <

You're the big Google guru so post the old news articles on ADT installers arrested for breaking into homes, but when you do it make sure to add installers for local companies. That's what's really scary.

alarms caused by a klutzy end-user?? Shoot the f**ker?? Cut off his hands??<

Training training training training and more training.

plated pull chains.<

Loxxons for everyone!

fire rating??<

It's like a left-handed toothbrush.

Customer?? That'll cost ya about $300.00 plus airfare, hotel, and entertainment!" <

So in other words NO?

providing good service and value for money (like Bob Campbell). In Bob's case, the business "grows" by referral and he can "pick and choose" who he wants to do business with. I'm sure that his son is going to have to make a decision sooner or later to hire addtional support staff and service techs. Besides, when "Joe Blow Alarm Company" gets to a certain size, they usually wind up selling out to a "national" for a "sweet-heart deal"... :-)) <

Have you seen any of his installs? He might be the greatest installer alive but have you seen any of his installs? It's just hearsay until you actually do.

Milk a bull

probably has good trouble-shooting skills as well. Besides, there's always the "cell phone"...<

He's "stated" but where is the proof? It's still hearsay Frankie.

You just did it in your reply.

never "spouted off" hearsay. <

You just did. Now what is the criteria to be listed on your website? Tell me what you do to protect end users from shoddy installers? Do you investigate these companies, and if so, how?

reading it's manual. I don't think Mark would tolerate many phone calls from Dealers that require answering a question that's already covered

*in the freakin' manual*. Not reading the manual is pure laziness. Posting stupid questions in this Newsgroup when you've got the manual in front of you is equally lazy. <

Frankie in most situations when it's your first time with the panel there is no time to read the manual so you wire up the different panels properly and have someone walk you through programming, and the next time you run into that system you should have it down in spades. Mind you I'm talking about panels that aren't amongst the most popular choices, and panels that are no longer in production. Mark dammit explain it in English to the Canuck.

right all along... I know nothing about alarms... :-))<

Bass thinks Augustus Pope was the ruler of Vatican City.

poison keyboard more and more)...<

It was the burgers.

OK?? Till then... "Below me"... :-)) <

"Below me"? Going UFO hunting now too?

Reply to
no wires showing

Actually I would have thought the % of false alarms would be even higher - when I was in high school I interned at a police precinct, they had a policy that if there were 3 false alarms at a location within a certain amount of time, they would no longer respond to an alarm call at that address for a period of 30 days.

It's been my experience that the vast majority of break-ins occur when the homeowner is gone (I work in law enforcement) - I have almost never seen a true home invasion (the few that do occur almost always involve parties who know each other and there's something else going on). That said, when I was a teenager our home was burglarized when we were home upstairs asleep at 4 AM, so I'm well aware that it does happen. I know that the likelihood that my home will be broken into is not very high, and the likelihood of it happening when I'm home is practically nil, but I still would like the peace of mind of having a security system - and if I'm going to go to the trouble, I'd like a good one that will work when it needs to (of course I don't want to break the bank either).

Based on the advice in this thread, I did find a local alarm company that I'm going to be meeting with this week and see what they have to say. I'll probably make my decision in a week or so, hopefully it won't be too complicated :)

Reply to
tufflaw

Hi,

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Reply to
Vicky

Just got a quote from Slomins - they're the only ones so far who have offered me a hard-wired system. Full installation is $396 for 3 door sensors, 4 windows, siren, keypad, and motion detector. I have to sign a five year contract at $25.45/month plus tax (about $27/month or so) after which I own the equipment. Is this a reasonable deal? Are there any benefits to hardwired as opposed to wireless? The Slomins guy said the only reason to go wireless is if I had a lot of windows, it would be less intrusive to go wireless, but he said that the problem with the wireless systems is that over time the battery starts to decay and the effectiveness is reduced. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Reply to
tufflaw

You're confusing me with someone else. I've been a big supporter of the local ADT branch for years.

It's "Dumb fckin Amuricans" that can't read no-how... Don't spell things right... and still believe theres justification in invading a sovereign nation...

Heh... in your dreams...

"Check" (on the quality equipment). How will "fire rated wiring" help??

You've obviously never heard of a procedures manual...

Really?? You were just slamming "Joe Blow". There used to be a "Westec" in Edmonton, but they sold out to the Borg.

Aux contraire, mon ami... Customers know ze qualitez of their ser-rveese ver-r-ry well... (at least ours do).

But you're "defending" a "national installation" over Joe Blows. Make up your freekin' mind, ya damn Yank. "We done found no weapons of mass destruction, but we done proved our weapons of mass destruction shure do work!"

That's a personal choice. Some can't be bothered... others take their security far more seriously.

Ummmm.... The ones that take their security far more seriously??

At least they're protected. It may be a bit of an inconvenience trying to find the open window when you're in a hurry to leave, but having each device annunciate individually on your keypad is not a requirement.

Ummmm... would that be from the branch office?? Could it be that the branch office may consist of one or two service techs (like Joe Blow's Company)??

Heh... right...

There ya go again... comparing Bass Home with a national (or any alarm company). He doesn't do installs. He doesn't do service (He does remove Brinks panels though). Sheesh!!!

I haven't seen a lot of examples of that. Vancouver must be "different".

Which was the point of my point... Dummy!!!

No matter how ya slice it, Bass isn't a "Dealer" of any kind (except when he's playin' Poker).

Don't know anything about how he installed. And I don't accept third party comments about another person. I've seen Bass in action in this group and wouldn't give the guy the time of day let alone allow him in my house to install a system. That opinion is based entirely on his Newsgroup persona and nothing else.

I'm already laughing...

Heh!!

None of the nationals I deal with here and very few of the locals take "shortcuts". Most customers here are pretty savvy when it comes to alarm systems.

Funny how the "nationals" always make the news with stuff like that...

Uh-huh... sure...

I like mine with a bagel.

Ahhh... I get the "pitcher".

Pardon me while I wipe the drool from my keyboard.

Nope. The industry here is pretty tightly regulated.

Did I say that??

Puh-leeze!!! It's "Courvoisier". My tastes are much more discriminating.

Nope. I haven't. But I'm a pretty good judge of character. I figure Jim, Mark, Jim R., RHC, Jack, Jackcsg, Bob L., Bob W., Norm and a few others here are decent folks. It's actually easier to list the guy "on the dark side" than all the good people here... :-))

A "bull" ain't a cow, but a cow can be a "bull", right?? :-))

Where?? I done Googled everythin', boss and can't find it nowhere.

Heh... I ain't gonna touch that!! I promised I wouldn't flame Robert...

Hey!!! Lay off RHC. He's Canadian, dammit!!!

Nope. When someone states something about their own business or themselves , that's not hearsay... You should look up the meaning of the word.

What do you think "I figure" means??

You really want to know?? Or are you just "fishing"??

I onliest hire the bestust beer drinkers and use the bestust qualities relays and pull chains.

Nope. Not my place. If they're licensed (in their State/Province) then they get listed. The BBB does a pretty good job of keeping tabs on how they perform. The latest iteration of my "Dealers" page contains a link to the local BBB and State Alarm Association.

Prozac???

It doesn't take long for me to read a manual. Understanding the principles of programming a panel doesn't take long either. I'd never even try to program a Radionics panel (or one of Jackcsg's "Dippy" ones)... And I don't waste time on the phone to someone in Texas to try and get him to talk me through programming when I know some klutzy installer that leaves "no-wires-showing" needs him more. :-))

I prefer "Noogies"...

Wasn't he??

:-))

Nope. Spooks. I done rewired my volt-meter to detect 'em.

Reply to
Frank Olson

The deal sounds okay but he's dead wrong about wireless sensors, most use lithium batteries which have a very stable voltage curve, the sensors themselves have quite a bit of lee-way concerning operating voltages.

In other words the sensors will work correctly and don't reduce effectiveness due to battery decay

Reply to
Mark Leuck

Sovereign...like Quebec eh?

| > Frankie you've been slamming nationals for years. Denial isn't a river | > in Egypt. | | You're confusing me with someone else. I've been a big supporter of the | local ADT branch for years. | | | | >>I believe I said that (only in not so many words).< | >

| > Next time use more words then. Dumb fckin Canadians always confusing | > people. | | It's "Dumb fckin Amuricans" that can't read no-how... Don't spell things | right... and still believe theres justification in invading a sovereign | nation... | | | | >

| > Properly training the end user will reduce false alarms. | | Heh... in your dreams... | | > Quality | > equipment and fire rated wiring will also help. | | "Check" (on the quality equipment). How will "fire rated wiring" help?? | | > While some nationals | > are absolute shitbags there are some who demand much higher standards | > than any local I've ever seen. | | You've obviously never heard of a procedures manual... | | | > If it came down to a choice between Joe Blow and Protect America I | > would go with Joe Blow but if you're comparing Joe Blow to say Westec | > then Westec is where my money is at. | | Really?? You were just slamming "Joe Blow". There used to be a "Westec" in | Edmonton, but they sold out to the Borg. | | | >

| >

| >> "Well my friend has a Joe Blow alarm system, and they never had | >> trouble" | >

| >

| >

| >>Most people would interpret a statement like that to mean: | >

| > - They're always "there" when you need them, | > - Their equipment is top notch, | > - They've never had a break-in (or the authorities responded to an | > attempt | > at one)< | >

| > Frankie customers don't have a real clue as to the quality of their | > service, and customers hate admitting they made a bad choice. | | Aux contraire, mon ami... Customers know ze qualitez of their ser-rveese | ver-r-ry well... (at least ours do). | | | >

| >

| >

| >> Do we know if Joe Blow's system is functioning properly? | >

| >

| >

| >>Do we know "the nationals" is??< | >

| > Not with all of them. I've seen jumped zones on ADT panels just as many | > times as I've seen jumped zones on the local company's panels. | | But you're "defending" a "national installation" over Joe Blows. Make up | your freekin' mind, ya damn Yank. "We done found no weapons of mass | destruction, but we done proved our weapons of mass destruction shure do | work!" | | | >

| >

| >> Does Joe Blow | >> really tell his client's to test their system weekly? | >

| >

| >>Checked your keypads lately?? It says "test system weekly" on most of | >>them.< | >

| > Know of many customers who actually do it? | | That's a personal choice. Some can't be bothered... others take their | security far more seriously. | | > How many customers know to | > look in the panel for jumped zones? | | Ummmm.... The ones that take their security far more seriously?? | | | > Come on down here and see what the "locals" offer. Windows & doors all | > on the same zone because they're too cheap to buy an expander. | | At least they're protected. It may be a bit of an inconvenience trying to | find the open window when you're in a hurry to leave, but having each device | annunciate individually on your keypad is not a requirement. | | | >

| >

| >> Does Joe Blow | >> jump zones rather than repairing faulty devices? | >

| >

| >>Do the "nationals"?? Crummy installers and ditzy service techs are also | > employed by "nationals", you know. I've met my fair share, thank you. | > < | >

| > I've met them from all walks of life, but with a national there is | > backup. | | Ummmm... would that be from the branch office?? Could it be that the | branch office may consist of one or two service techs (like Joe Blow's | Company)?? | | > Nationals tend to have more installers in their local offices | > than Joe Blow. | | Heh... right... | | > If Joe Blow is a 1 man show like your pal in Sarasota | > then what recourse does the end user have? | | There ya go again... comparing Bass Home with a national (or any alarm | company). He doesn't do installs. He doesn't do service (He does remove | Brinks panels though). Sheesh!!! | | | >

| >

| >> It only takes one | >> incident to destroy a national's reputation but Joe Blow skates. | >

| >

| >>Wrong. Both the "national" and "Joe Blow" (using your example of "we've | > never had any trouble") would stand behind the equipment they sell and | > "make | > it right" with the customer on any "one incident".< | >

| > I've seen more locals than nationals walk away from trouble systems, | > leaving the customer high & dry. | | I haven't seen a lot of examples of that. Vancouver must be "different". | | > Those "low down/free systems" have done more to bolster our industry | > than any other form of marketing. | > Crunch the numbers and see the amount of systems installed since the | > inception of these low down systems. | | Which was the point of my point... Dummy!!! | | | >

| >

| >> Look at Bass. | >

| >

| >>You comparing Bass Home with a "national" now?? He's a parts pusher who | > doesn't provide service, or installation and still claims the CS he's | > using | > is "UL Listed".< | >

| > No ya numbnut I was comparing Bass with a local dealer. How many of his | > victims even know they were duped by him? I saw the clowns installs, | > and he made the crappiest installer look like a pro. | | No matter how ya slice it, Bass isn't a "Dealer" of any kind (except when | he's playin' Poker). | | | >

| >

| >> Think of the people he has | >> suckered over the years. | >

| >

| >>Twelve at last count at the BBB (and rising).< | >

| > Not his online racket. I'm talking about his CT installs. | | Don't know anything about how he installed. And I don't accept third party | comments about another person. I've seen Bass in action in this group and | wouldn't give the guy the time of day let alone allow him in my house to | install a system. That opinion is based entirely on his Newsgroup persona | and nothing else. | | | >

| >

| >> No problems with some of his installs because | >> he jumped zones. | >

| >

| >>I'll take your word for it. I've never seen one of his installs and | > probably never will.< | >

| > You'd die laughing if you did. | | I'm already laughing... | | | >

| >

| >> You don't think Bass was ever referred to someone | >> because the existing sucker never had a problem? | >

| >

| >>I'm sure he was. I understand he was "big" with Jewish Community.< | >

| > Like a bacon sandwich in Temple Beth El. | | Heh!! | | | >

| >

| >> Bass isn't all by | >> himself in the shoddy business society. | >

| >

| >>Like I said, I can't comment on Bass providing "shoddy service". I've | >>never | > seen one of his installs. I *have* seen the competitions though.< | >

| > I'm not sure how many installs you have seen but from my experience the | > local dealers here need some sort of policing. | > Guys like Jack Stevens are a dying breed (at their age they're on | > borrowed time too). Locals try to compete with nationals and most I've | > seen can't do it without taking shortcuts. | | None of the nationals I deal with here and very few of the locals take | "shortcuts". Most customers here are pretty savvy when it comes to alarm | systems. | | | >

| >

| >> The difference is Bass was | >> busted time and time again in this forum, but I'd bet money to this day | >> there are people who still think their system from the local guy (bass) | >> still works fine. Wait until they find out that heat detector isn't | >> connected. | >

| >

| >>"Busting his balls" in the forum isn't the same as getting nailed for | > "shoddy workmanship" or "unlicensed activity" in your local area. | > There's | > been a couple of instances where both has happened to one of the "big | > three" | > here in Vancouver (ISTR the CEO of Tyco got "nailed" recently). < | >

| > You're the big Google guru so post the old news articles on ADT | > installers arrested for breaking into homes, but when you do it make | > sure to add installers for local companies. | > That's what's really scary. | | Funny how the "nationals" always make the news with stuff like that... | | | >

| >

| >> See if the Central station is U.L. Listed, and I.Q. Certified. Make | >> sure the installing company is also licensed & I.Q Certified. | >> As Jack stated 90 some odd percent of all signals are false alarms. The | >> I.Q. Certification Board's #1 goal is the reduction of false alarms. | >

| >

| >

| >>Right. So what method does "the Board" recommend you use to reduce false | > alarms caused by a klutzy end-user?? Shoot the f**ker?? Cut off his | > hands??< | >

| > Training training training training and more training. | | Uh-huh... sure... | | | >

| >

| >> Joe Blow Alarm Company can always offer a better deal than the next guy | >> because Joe Blow Alarm Company doesn't use quality equipment, | >

| >

| >>Excuse me?? We onliest use the bestust relays and high quality chrome | > plated pull chains.< | >

| > Loxxons for everyone! | | I like mine with a bagel. | | | >

| >

| >> fire-rated wire, | >

| >

| >>Is that anything like asbestos covered steel supports that had a "two | >>hour" | > fire rating??< | >

| > It's like a left-handed toothbrush. | | Ahhh... I get the "pitcher". | | | >

| >

| >> and doesn't answer to anyone. | >

| >

| >>I always answer my phone... when I feel like it.< | >

| > Who calls you anyway? I wouldn't. You spell like a retard so you must | > be dribbling on the phone too :-) | | Pardon me while I wipe the drool from my keyboard. | | | >

| >

| >> Joe Blow can use that | >> $2.00 per month monitoring station that ass nuggets like Bass use. | >

| >

| >>We use third party monitoring as well... They're ULC listed, and their | > staff are all SIA trained.< | >

| >

| > Would you say that's the exception and not the rule? | | Nope. The industry here is pretty tightly regulated. | | | >

| >

| >> Joe | >> Blow won't offer a client a system relocation. | >

| >

| >>I would in a heartbeat!! "You wanna move this equipment to where, Mr. | > Customer?? That'll cost ya about $300.00 plus airfare, hotel, and | > entertainment!" < | >

| > So in other words NO? | | Did I say that?? | | | >

| >

| >> All Joe Blow can do is | >> tell you why someone else is no good. | >

| >

| >>Well thank you, Joe... errmmmm... I mean Tom...< | >

| >

| > Too much eggnog? | | Puh-leeze!!! It's "Courvoisier". My tastes are much more discriminating. | | | >

| >> Fact is, if Joe Blow Alarm | >> Company was that damn good then Joe Blow Alarm Company would be bigger | >> than they are, and have awards to show just how much better they are. | >

| >

| >>Not if the owner (in this case Joe Blow) decided he wanted to concentrate | >>on | > providing good service and value for money (like Bob Campbell). In | > Bob's | > case, the business "grows" by referral and he can "pick and choose" who | > he | > wants to do business with. I'm sure that his son is going to have to | > make a | > decision sooner or later to hire addtional support staff and service | > techs. | > Besides, when "Joe Blow Alarm Company" gets to a certain size, they | > usually | > wind up selling out to a "national" for a "sweet-heart deal"... :-)) < | >

| > Have you seen any of his installs? He might be the greatest installer | > alive but have you seen any of his installs? | > It's just hearsay until you actually do. | | Nope. I haven't. But I'm a pretty good judge of character. I figure Jim, | Mark, Jim R., RHC, Jack, Jackcsg, Bob L., Bob W., Norm and a few others here | are decent folks. It's actually easier to list the guy "on the dark side" | than all the good people here... :-)) | | | >

| >> Yap yap yap until the cows come home but the proof is in the pudding. | >

| >

| >

| >>When the cows come home you have to milk them first before you can make | > pudding.< | >

| > Milk a bull | | A "bull" ain't a cow, but a cow can be a "bull", right?? :-)) | | | >

| >

| >> Stop advising people to eliminate choices with blanket statements. | >

| >

| >

| >>I don't think I did...< | >

| > You have done it before. You post so damn much you can't keep track of | > your own blabbering. | | Where?? I done Googled everythin', boss and can't find it nowhere. | | | >

| >

| >> Look at the post from RHC in this thread and see if you can spot a | >> problem with "local service". | >

| >

| >>Yep. That problem's covered though (in RHC's case). When Bass goes on | > vacation the whole store goes to s**t. < | >

| > And how many Bassholes are there as opposed to RHCs? | | Heh... I ain't gonna touch that!! I promised I wouldn't flame Robert... | | | >

| >

| >> RHC went on vacation (which is great.... more power to him) but who was | >> left minding the shop? | >

| >

| >>Ummmm... His son??< | >

| > How qualified is his son? (mind you RHC is the example of a small | > dealer Frankie. We're not discussing his son per say but companies | > constructed the same way). What if his son isn't qualified? When will a | > Father ever admit his son is incapable? RHC isn't the only father/son | > company out there. | | Hey!!! Lay off RHC. He's Canadian, dammit!!! | | | >

| >

| >> Someone who in his own words doesn't fully understand the industry. | >

| >

| >>Heh... He's also stated that he does most of the installs. I figure he | > probably has good trouble-shooting skills as well. Besides, there's | > always | > the "cell phone"...< | >

| >

| > He's "stated" but where is the proof? It's still hearsay Frankie. | | Nope. When someone states something about their own business or themselves | , that's not hearsay... You should look up the meaning of the word. | | | >

| >

| >> What happened to any potential service issues during that time? Who | >> took care of the customers? Was it someone who was fully aware of the | >> industry, and someone who knows how to handle any service issue? | >> How long should a customer wait until their system is functioning at | >> 100%. | >

| >

| >>About two hours (I figure)...< | >

| > You GUESS | | What do you think "I figure" means?? | | | >

| >

| >> This isn't a pot shot at anyone Frank, but this isn't the Goodwill | >> Society either so if offense is taken so be it. | >

| >

| >>No offense taken... and none given...< | >

| > I must be losing my touch :-) | >

| > | >

| >

| >

| >> It's sad how "advise" (Canadian version) is spewed out about who is | >> good and who isn't when the bottom line is you don't really have a | >> f****ng clue if you're right or not. | >

| >

| >>Awww... give me a break... Nothing I've said hasn't been said already. | > Check out:< | >

| > You just did it in your reply. | >

| | | | >

| >> Having a few beers with someone, | >> or trading emails doesn't make them a reputable dealer, nor does | >> someone listed on your website have a reputation that you know for fact | >> is good. All you do is spout off hearsay, and in this business that's | >> just irresponsible. | >

| >

| >>Heh... I've never listed anyone on my website by "reputation". And I've | > never "spouted off" hearsay. < | >

| > You just did. Now what is the criteria to be listed on your website? | | You really want to know?? Or are you just "fishing"?? | | | > Tell me what you do to protect end users from shoddy installers? | | I onliest hire the bestust beer drinkers and use the bestust qualities | relays and pull chains. | | | > Do you investigate these companies, and if so, how? | | Nope. Not my place. If they're licensed (in their State/Province) then | they get listed. The BBB does a pretty good job of keeping tabs on how they | perform. The latest iteration of my "Dealers" page contains a link to the | local BBB and State Alarm Association. | | | >

| >

| >> I've been a local dealer, and I've been a dealer for nationals. Were my | >> installers any better when we didn't have the national shingle? | >

| >

| >>Nope. I think I've already alluded to that.< | >

| > OK | >

| >

| >> (BTW - Fuck you Bass in advance for your future comments. I could out | >> install your slob ass with a Yankee drill, a dull bit, and both arms in | >> a sling). | >

| >

| >

| >>You forgot to mention "both legs in a cast".< | >

| > And under sedation | | Prozac??? | | | >

| >

| >> I've cracked jokes about my installation abilities over the years but I | >> can guarantee you you'd be hard pressed to find someone you'd rather | >> have install or service your system than me or any of my techs. Mark | >> Leuck and I crack jokes about the millions of phone calls I've made to | >> him with questions but what we never talk about is the reason being | >> that I service DSC, Moose, AT&T, ITI, Ademco, Napco, DS, Radionics, | >> MyAlarm, and on and on and on. All of my training has been Baptism by | >> Fire. I don't sit back and read a manual so I can post answers in a | >> newsgroup. I get a call today for a panel I never worked with and by | >> tomorrow I have it repaired. And as Mark can also attest to I am not | >> alone in this area. | >

| >

| >

| >>I seriously doubt you'd be able to repair/program a panel without first | > reading it's manual. I don't think Mark would tolerate many phone | > calls | > from Dealers that require answering a question that's already covered | > *in | > the freakin' manual*. Not reading the manual is pure laziness. | > Posting | > stupid questions in this Newsgroup when you've got the manual in front | > of | > you is equally lazy. < | >

| >

| > Frankie in most situations when it's your first time with the panel | > there is no time to read the manual so you wire up the different panels | > properly and have someone walk you through programming, and the next | > time you run into that system you should have it down in spades. | > Mind you I'm talking about panels that aren't amongst the most popular | > choices, and panels that are no longer in production. | > Mark dammit explain it in English to the Canuck. | | It doesn't take long for me to read a manual. Understanding the principles | of programming a panel doesn't take long either. I'd never even try to | program a Radionics panel (or one of Jackcsg's "Dippy" ones)... And I don't | waste time on the phone to someone in Texas to try and get him to talk me | through programming when I know some klutzy installer that leaves | "no-wires-showing" needs him more. :-)) | | | >

| >

| >> Do you think all locals immediately become inept once a national hands | >> them a shingle? | >

| >

| >

| >>Yep!!! :-)) < | >

| > You really do want a fckin wedgie don't you? | | I prefer "Noogies"... | | | >

| >

| >> Rojas services for nationals and was also a dealer. Is he on the | >> "dark-side" of installers now? Bob Skinner was an ADT dealer. How | >> shoddy is his work? How about Bossman? He's a Monitronics dealer. Does | >> his work suck? Are his clients screwed? | >

| >

| >

| >>Hey!!! We do work for "nationals" too!!! I guess that means Robert's | >>been | > right all along... I know nothing about alarms... :-))< | >

| > Bass thinks Augustus Pope was the ruler of Vatican City. | | Wasn't he?? | | | >

| >

| >> How solid is your advice now Frank? How solid is your "atta boy Frank" | >> now RHC? | >

| >

| >

| >>'Bout as "solid" as this post (which looks more like an example from RLB's | > poison keyboard more and more)...< | >

| > It was the burgers. | | :-)) | | | >

| >

| >> Stop bullshitting people already with your nickel and dime scare | >> tactics about nationals, and start worrying about your own credibility | >> because with the advice you offer you're both in desperate need of | >> some. | >

| >

| > | >

| >

| >> Don't like what I am saying? Remind me tomorrow to pretend I give a | >> shit. | >

| >

| >

| >>Write me when you start making sense and have actually *read* what I | >>posted, | > OK?? Till then... "Below me"... :-)) < | >

| > "Below me"? Going UFO hunting now too? | | Nope. Spooks. I done rewired my volt-meter to detect 'em. | |

Reply to
Crash Gordon®

Not TOO bad. Most monitoring in this Slomins area, from independent dealers is somewhere around $18.00 to $20.00 per month. Anywhere from one year to 5 years.

With what you are getting on the install, it looks like they've just spread out the balance (of what you would normally pay up front for the complete job) over the 5 years with a little tacked on for their "loaning" you the money.

Here's what I consider the down side. In my area,the people who usually install for Slomins are people who were former sub contractors or people who haven't been able to hold jobs with independent dealers or make it on their own in business. Here, there are literally hundreds of independent alarm companys and every installer, who's got any talent at all, is working with companys who have customers lined up waiting for intallations. The people who can't hold jobs with these companys, usually go to work for Slomins. Secondly, I've been told that you'll find that service is rather slow coming from Slomins, should you require it in the future. And, of course, you'll never see the same person twice. On the other hand, Slomins has gone into the top ten largest US alarm companies in a relatively short number of years. So, they have to be doing something right. Just watch out for anything that sounds like the words FREE. Because you know that you're paying more for it than most people would, if they paid regular price.

As far as wireless goes, a wired system is better but not for reasons you'd suspect. Reliability of a wired versus wired system is just about equal, if both system are installed to the highest quality. But a well installed wireless system is going to work better than a poorly installed hard wired system and vice versa. The two disadvantages of wireless system are, you have to change batteries in the transmitters every 3 to five years. ( not too bad)and ..... The most difficult thing to reconcile is that in about 10 years, if a major component fails, it's possible that the mfg has discontinued that product and there are no compatable wireless components available. You'll have to replace all the hardware with the latest wireless system. Hardwired system with future problems, you only have to replace the failed component.

Advantages are: wireless requires very little disruption of the decor of your home to install it. If you make sure the equipment you are having installed is expandable, wireless can be added to, very easily, in the future, should you decide to increase the scope of your system. Hardwired no. In my opinion, wireless systems are less suseptable to lightning damage also. Hardwired systems tend to experience more damage when they are hit. There is one disadvantage to wireless that has more to do with the method of installation and not the equipment. Wireless systems have procedures to follow that will allow an installer to check the field strenth of the transmitters so that they or the receivers can be placed at the locations that will provide the very best reception.

Unfortunately, many installers that I've come across, just simply install the system and if it works ....... it works. If there's bad reception on a transmitter, they adjust it and just leave the rest of the system alone. That is, every other transmitter could be one degree off losing contact ......... and they just leave it that way. I've experienced that this usually takes place with companies who sell the "free" or discount systems,...... as the installers are usually under pressure to install as many systems a day, as possible. And ..... they are not usually the ones who get the call back for service. But, in some cases, it's just laziness or ineptness on the installers part, regardless who they work for.

What disturbs me about your post is that the Slomins salesperson lied to you about wireless battery decay making wireless systems become less effective. All major mfgs wireless systems have transmitter low battery alert, with at least 30 days advance notice. This can be reported to central station, also. So, if someone with a wireless system can't change their battery within 30 days of notification ( and notice remains on the keypad every day)then, that's the only way it could cause loss of effectiveness. And at that point it's the users fault. Why the salesperson would feel he had to lie about that simple matter, makes me wonder. Considering the fact that Slomins has literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of wireless installations installed.

Hmmm, I wonder..?

Reply to
Jim

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