I know "opinions" here are not hard to find, that is why I thought I should ask.
With out going into a lot of detail and naming names. Who or how should I handle the following situation???
I had installed a total of 18 "devices" on a system about 3 years ago. Come to find out that a total of 11 out of these 18 are with manufactured defects that will render the device non-functional. After contacting the manufacture and explaining the defect and sending pictures, they have agreed that there is a problem. They have requested that I would ship the defective devices back to them for further investigation. They have also agreed to a credit to me thru my distributor by supplying me with 18 compatitable devices of another manufacturer since non were in stock at this time.
My plan is to take more pictures and send a letter to the manufacturer concerning the defect. My concern is that once I send them back, I and other dealers (you) will never hear a thing about this. The indication is that they have no knowledge of this ever happening before with there product.
I am asking here to get some input as to how product recalls are initiated or implemented so that this does not get swept under the carpet.
And as I said above I will not divulge any names or product models at this time. This is just a fact finding mission that I am on at this time.
I had occasion to do exactly what you are faced with a few years ago and they even bought the items from me so that they could do their own testing....and there was ultimately a "recall" of the item.
Sort of puts a whole new spin on performing a "weekly test" (as most manufacturers suggest) of your alarm system, doesn't it?? I'd suggest everyone here emphasize doing this in your next customer newsletter and (at the very least) include instructions on how to test the different "points" on the alarm with your next invoice.
My feeling is that if you have 11 out of 18 on the same job, regardless of what they have told you, they have heard about it elsewhere. If it has been three years, they have also probably fixed the problem. I had a simular problem but the company put an expiration date on the recall. My problems didn't show up until well after the recall expiration date. Even though they acknowledged the problem and had a recall, they say the problem is now mine. Well....no it isn't. I've since changed product and distributor as well. The sales rep changed companys and he still isn't welcome in my door. The problem is, "where are these recalls posted?" And the bigger problem is, who is absorbing the costs due to the manufactures defects? If they had to, their quality control might be tighter and we and our customers would not be their practice field.
First thing you have to do is get it or put it in writing and start communicating with the mfg with certified - return receipt letters. Anything said in a conversation can (and will) be denied. Since you've already spoken to them, you can write them a letter describing, in detail your findings and experiences with the equipment. Then go on to describe how you contacted them and what they said, what you said. End the correspondence with ..... I will await your corroboation of the events, so far, as outlined in this letter. I will expect a reply within XX days. Describe every product in detail and be as specific with dates and places and events, as you can. Include as many names as you can, of other people you've spoken with also. Don't forget to include the names of people at distributors and sales reps. Having third party substanciation of your efforts is always good.
If they don't respond appropriately, report it to whichever agency or as many agencies as you care to. Which, even if you do get a posititive response, depending upon the ultimate out come, you should probably do anyway. If you're not satisfied with their response, depending on how strongly you feel principled about it, letters to distributors, their competitors and in fourms like these have some effect.
Recalls are started by one person followed by how many others make complaints.
Bob, this is what manufacturer's warranties are all about. If they guarantee a product for two years, and people start having problems at two years and six months, the manufacturer is absolutely within its rights to say, "Too bad, that's life." If they had wanted to give a three year warranty, they would have done so.
Of course, a smart manufacturer may choose to extend the warranty on a product that is known to have problems, in order to avoid alienating customers. But they're under no obligation to do so, much less extend the warranty indefinitely.
To get back to the original poster's question, how to prove the products were defective once you've sent them back:
Consider keeping one of the items as insurance, if they're all exhibiting the same defect. You may be able to send it in later, after they make good on the other 17, by saying you just found another one. If not, consider the cost as the price you paid for insurance.
Before you send anything back, conduct tests and record your results in a lab notebook with bound, nonremovable pages. Date and sign each entry, stating what you did and what the results were. If possible, have someone else witness your experiments. This is one way people document inventions before filing patent applications (except for the witness part). Identify the products you test by lot number, serial number, or whatever. If the defects are visible, take pictures.
As Jim said, send lots of letters, certified, and make sure your shipments of defective products have tracking and proof of delivery. Send a letter saying something like, "I wanted to thank you for your offer to replace these items with a competitor's products at no charge. It's great to see a manufacturer stand behind its products like that. I'll be shipping them back to you in about ten days. Please call me if you have any special shipping instructions, or if there's anything else I need to do." Document everything.
First I want to give the mfg. a chance to do right on this and second I am not going to stick my liability neck out just yet. Suffice it to say that we have ALL installed them and I am sure that most are just fine.
Please do not turn this into a 3 ring circus with comments, guesses, and suppositions. When the time is right I will post all details. Just sit back and relax and have a beer or two.
Who gives a shit how many beers you drink? Frank says you're a drunk like all other Frenchies. I just wanna know how the vacation was and if you caught any fish?
LOL Sorry man,look like the language barrier did some damage here....(I ran in it like hell!)
The fishing been good even if it was damn too hot,the river were still cold enough to make the fish react to my lure.. the best part was that there were almost no mosquito or fly around,so I knew what not to put as lure...
the bombardier 4 wheel bike I had broke on me,got to walk on a road build by lumber company for around 30 kilometer before I found some living soul that could help me,but that was fun,there is a lot of activity at night in that region! Grin ;-)
I left my catch at my sister place she is smoking it right now,or it was yesterday,and she will drop it here this week end,cant wait to have it...
I mainly got some "truite" and a few wall eyes...no trophy worth catch,but still I am happy...
Now I am going back at work on Monday but they already sent me a few job on the fax,I didn't even looked at it,that would hurt my eyes that's for sure!
As promised this is the response to all your questions and guesses.
OK, concerning the below post, I can now fill you all in on the details.
To who mentioned that the mfg. may have been aware long already, you were right.
The problem was with some Chemtronics 604 heat detectors concerning the rivet that holds on the brass terminal strip had broken on 11 out of the 18 that I had installed. The date code was W01-Y04. This was the first week of 2004 production run.
It seems that the rivet was too small in size and when placed under the pressure of tightening the wire to the terminal it would break the rivet. As the installer you would not necessarily see the broken rivet. With the rivet broken the integrity of the circuit was good but the detectors were useless.
Just received a letter from Mircom explaining the above and that a Field Bulletin 04-050-T was issued on August 18, 2004 from OEM Chemtronics/Kidde-Fenwal, Inc.
It states on the Field Bulletin for ACTION:
"If during scheduled service or a trouble call, check the terminal plates of EACH detector for rivet security. If a defect is detected on series 600 heat detectors, contact Chemtronics customer service to request replacement units and obtain a Return Authorization Number (RMA) to return the defective units."
This Field Bulletin was only sent as an ADVISORY and not as a RECALL.
I guess they didn't think it was such a big deal at the time.
Since Chemtronics was the OEM and I was talking to MIRCOM they did not know about the problem when I was taking to Tech Support. According to my letter from Mircom it said that Chemtronics had contacted the CSPC with regard to the matter with a "No Fault" finding.
I may have been a little excessive in my caution but better safe than sorry. If you guy can track your installs for Heat Detectors you may want to check those that were purchased in early 2004. You may have some that will be absolutely useless to your customers protection.
Which brings up a question. If the Service Bulletin is printed who get it or how is it disseminated to the masses. The Distributor??? Is it then the Distributor responsibility to pass it on the dealers. Anyone have any knowledge on the way it is "supposed" to work??? Just thinking out loud, as it were, because it didn't seem to work in this case.
I just happened to get lucky and had the customer, while on site during a very close lightning strike, and the thunder had vibrated the building with enough force to dislodge the brass plates, which shorted against each other and caused a fire alarm on the heat detector loop. Who would have thought???
Mircom will be giving me a credit for the 18 detectors that were replaced with the Edwards brand detector. Imagine that??? They may no comment as to my labor cost that I asked about. I had to ask.
Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions. Hope you guys don't have any.
Cabling-Design.com Forums website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.