Locked Out by Vendor

After many many years of sticking with the monitoring service offered by my initial home alarm installer, due to constant compounding price increases I decided to get service from another company. I come to find that my trusted provider has locked the new monitoring company out the controller. When they sold me the system, they sat at my kitchen table and told me that I was under no obligation to continue with their service and that I owned the equipment. What they did not disclose was on small line in a wordy and lengthy contract that stipulates that they own the communicator. We=92ve probably all signed documents relying on anticipated fair business practices without parsing words (=91I did not have sexual relations with that woman=92). Two questions, is this common practice and is there a hardware reset on a Radionics 4112?

Reply to
scantrell113
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Long ago communicators were a separate component of the security system. Now that it is all inclusive, their statement is outdated and not true. If the dealer was to remove his "communicator", he would be leaving you will no system at all, this is grounds for a lawsuit. In some states, it is illegal for dealers to withhold access to your system after your contract has been fulfilled.

Their contract should have been worded that the information contained in the communicator belongs to them, which it does. All they need to do is remove the information. This usually means a seervice charge of somekind.

Do not allow them to remove the main board. It is your property.

Jim Rojas

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Reply to
Jim Rojas

X2. You'll probably have to pay them to remove their data, but ask them nicely to download it, they won't have to send a guy out. If they have objections find out who within the company would be the person the attorney general's office could contact to speak about this.

Reply to
Red

Something called "theft by conversion" maybe?

Watch out Jim. The "Spellcheck Patrol" is in a bad mood today.

Reply to
Bob Worthy

The industry continues to shoot themselves in the foot. Tell them to unlock the freakin board and move on. Why do they try to keep someone that will never be happy after the fiasco. One client goes away, go sell two more. The AG's office gets involved and then supports legislation against the whole industry for some goof's idiotic policy. On the flip side, if the customer owes you money, unlock the board so your competitor takes them over, along with their bad pay habits, and turn the deadbeat over to collections. Life is to short to get sideways with a customer over a lock out code.

Reply to
Bob Worthy

No there's no hardware/software reset on the 4112 - ask the original company to unlock it for you. If they still have remote programming software (it's very old) they should be able to do it from their office.

Reply to
Crash Gordon

that puppy's an antique. you'll be lucky if there is anyone around that company that can even reprogram it. by the way, how's that studebaker running? are you gonig to sue if you can't get parts for it from the original seller?

Reply to
Barney

First of all, a 4112 can only be programmed by someone with a Radionics programmer, or Radionics programming software. Even under the best of conditions, this may severely limit your potential choices when selecting a new alarm company.

Second, 4112s came in two versions, with and without the "Datalock" feature. Panels with Datalock have an L at the end of the part number, if you can look at the circuit board. The Datalock feature is designed to keep one authorized Radionics dealer from accessing the programming of another Radionics dealer's panels. If your panel has this feature, then only your present company can unlock it and set it to a condition that allows other Radionics dealers to program it. This can be done either remotely, or in person. If your panel does not have the Datalock feature, then anyone with a Radionics programmer can reprogram your system without your present alarm company's permission.

Finally, the 4112 was a bare-bones panel many years ago, and although I'm sure it meets your needs, you might want to consider investing in a newer panel and keypads. One that can be serviced by a wider range of alarm companies, for example, than these "authorized dealer" products.

Reply to
Nomen Nescio

How do you know it's locked out? Did the tech try to enter programming with a 5200 programmer or just by downloading it?

Reply to
Mark Leuck

The common practice part of the question would have more to do with the where you live part of the question. In some places that is not legal to do. There is no separate slave dialer inside the D4112. It is a control communicator combination. The D4112 is an old panel. It is not supported by the manufacturer anymore (Bosch). It may be cheaper (and better) to just buy a new panel and keypad combo and install it instead. There is a data lock feature on the D4112. If the D4112 panel has not been data locked then you should be able to get a D5100 or D5200 to program it locally or remotely program the panel with RAM II.

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Reply to
Just Looking

Yes, I agree. It seems very short-sighted of the supplier. I hate to get the AG involved but I suppose a handshake does not go as far as it used to. It's a local PA alarm company - Advent Security - so it would be nice to find some others around with the same experience. The unit may be old (Barney) but it functions as needed so there has never been cause to update or change h/w. In fact, if the hardware was failing, that would rightfully be on me.

Reply to
scantrell113

table and told me that I was under no obligation to continue

The new monitoring company dialed into the system however when they entered the default RAM Passcode, it did not match. I then asked (nicely) the existing monitoring company, Advent Security, to reset it. Advent told me that they would not release the code that they changed it to. When asked to reset it, that is when I got the "we own the communicator" line.

Reply to
scantrell113

When we run into this kind of situation we will replace the panel & keypad at our cost + 1 hour of our time.

I "may" still have a 4112 panel (NOS).

Reply to
Crash Gordon

That wasn't "the company" or the "installer". That was a "salesman". You more than likely do "own" the equipment, though. If the communicator is part of the common control unit, then the only thing they "own" is the proprietary information the system uses to communicate with the company's central station. There has been numerous legal precedents that have determined this. If they continue to "insist" on spewing the "ownership" line, then I would suggest that you:

  1. cancel your contract properly (provide them with the correct notice),
  2. have the company that wants to take over install their own communicator and connect it to your existing system. This will allow you to retain all the functionality of the original system.

If you really want to be a royal "pain" to the original company, change your home phone number and have your phone company block calls originating from it. That way the original alarm company's communicator will still transmit signals to their central and there's nothing they can do about it unless they come out and physically disconnect your system (which you won't allow them to do because they're being "royal pains" themselves). They won't be obligated to respond to any emergency signals though, because you've canceled your contract.

You mean you sign a contract without reading and understanding all the terms?? That's plain "dumb".

Reply to
Frank Olson

I don't know how much trouble you want to go to to get the use of your system but you might want to try this.

Send them a letter telling them that since they will not allow you access to the alarm system that you paid for and that is your property, that you are going to take them to small claims court to obtain the cost of the installation of a new panel. You can tell them that all you want is access to YOUR alarm system. Since the communicator is part of the alarm panel it cannot be removed but they are welcome to come and remove only that part of the programing that allows the communicator to report to central station, as long as they leave you with an operating system and access to the dealer programing for the next alarm company. Be very clear on what you require them to do so that they don't come to your home and make the system inoperable and inaccessable. Sent Certified, return recept letter.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet in this thread, but typically, nowdays, since communicators are an integeral part of a control panels printed circuit board, the contract will say that the communication "software" is the property of the alarm company, not the communicator. So you should confirm with them that they really said "communicator" and not "communication software".

If they say "communicator" and you wanted to be a smart-ass about it, you could tell them that they are welcome to come and take the communicator, as long as they leave you with an equivalent working alarm system that you paid for originally.

Whether you follow through on the threat or not is up to you. In my state, if called to small claims court, a corporation is required to be represented by an attorney. So even if you lose, they've still got to pay him. If it's the same in your state then they may not want to risk having to pay his fee and will decide to default your system instead. If they don't respond, then it's your call.

Reply to
Jim

I have a 4112 panel (POS)

Reply to
Mark Leuck

hah. it wasn't 4112...it was two 2212s

I pulled a 6112 out yesterday...I had installed it 20 years ago!...still working but he wanted to move it from his office to his house and his house needed wireless.

Reply to
Crash Gordon

personally, the whole thing aint worth the few bucks it would cost to replace the OLD OLD 4112 board and a keypad or two with something newer.

Reply to
Crash Gordon

I liked the 6112. It was very unique. I had one in my apartment in Brooklyn.

Jim Rojas

Crash Gord> hah.

Reply to
Jim Rojas

Unique isn't quite the word I had for it

Reply to
Mark Leuck

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