Hook in AC Fire Alarms to Security System

NFPA prohibits tying 120 volt smokes to a fire panel because of problems of false alarms caused when power drops to smokes it is highly likely to false . 3-8.1.3 and3-8.1.4.4 Put in some wireless smokes which are supervised would be the better way.

Don't do it. Do it right or don't do it at all. I cringe everytime I see someone do this.

(Other than from an asthetics point of view) I suppose I could install two sets fire alarms in the house.The only way I could do this though would be to do it wirelessly (or rebuild my house since it would be near impossible to route the wires without major destruction! ;)

The only thing I'm a little confused by is why would Cepco sell such a system if it was against code. They say on their web site that not only is it UL Listed but Listed with the California Fire Marshal (CSFM

7300-1628-100.) It's specifically designed for 120V Fire Alarms to be connected to an Alarm Panel for monitoring purposes (states it right in the application notes in several places.)

I hope we're all talking about the same system here, it's not a direct connect method (i.e. using a BRK relay module for instance which is ABSOLUTELY against code and I'm aware of this.) The way they do their system is much different than I've seen before. If you don't know what I mean then you might want to check out their web site for details.

I understand this is not the most ideal method since the two systems are independent and no supervision would be possible. But wouldn't it be better to have some monitoring than none at all? (Not doing something doesn't make any sense to me since if a fire broke out at my house and I'm not home it's going to burn to the ground period - my neighbors are just too far away to notice.)

Thanks!!

Crash Gord> Don't do it. Do it right or don't do it at all. I cringe everytime I see

If you're actually bent on doing this, NFPA does allow you to connect your 120VAC smoke alarms through a listed relay to your burglar panel. It does NOT allow connection to a UL listed Fire Alarm Control, however. I would never recommend this type of interconnection for obvious reasons, however the section of NFPA which references this topic is NFPA

72-2002 11.7.6.7.

You must use a relay that's listed for operation with the specific smoke alarms.

I should clarify the "It does NOT allow connection to a UL listed Fire Alarm Control, however" comment. You *can* monitor *status* of almost any device on a listed fire alarm panel (program a zone as a "monitor" zone). Some other examples are: fire dampers, exhaust fans, pressurization fans, generator "status" indicators, etc. You can't use a 120VAC smoke alarm (even with a listed relay) to initiate an alarm in place of a properly listed two wire supervised smoke detector.

gotta link to the website?

I looked up a link for them.

They want to monitor smoke alarms over a PLC or "X-10" type system. Tell me i'm wrong. As unreliable as x-10 can be, there is no way i or probably anyone here would recommend using this as an alarm signal.

After looking at their website, code or not, I just could not trust a power line type system to operate reliably enough for a life safety application

hemay want to ask over in comp.home.automation, they are the x10 pros. but yeah it sounds like a bad idea for life safety functions.

First of all I don't think anyone here would *recommend* using (or even propose installing) an AC smoke detector as a life safety device (regardless of the fact that it may incorporate a back-up battery). The

*proper* way to provide fire detection in any situation is to use smoke detectors/alarms that are powered & *supervised* by a listed burglar or fire panel. Of course, Bass will jump in and state that as soon as you connect any smoke detector or heat detector to a listed burg panel, it magically transforms into a fire alarm system. He'll also argue (until he's blue in the face) that you *can't* tie in an AC smoke alarm to a burg panel (or communicator); that it's against code (he'll even quote the definitions listed in NFPA) to support his argument while totally ignoring NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7.

Thanks everyone for the information. This is very helpful. I definitely NOT an expert on this so it's good to hear from people who are. I always try to educate myself before attempting anything, so whether this is a good or bad idea it's nice to understand at least what the pros and cons are for this solution.

As for reliability, I don't think this will be an issue given how close in proximity my first AC Fire Alarm is to my panel anyway (I know with X10/PLC systems distance can be a factor in reliability.) They actually state that the system is extremely reliable and they have a small "whitepaper" on the technology in case anyone is interested in reading it on their web site:

The one thing I'm curious about is what happens in the event of a power failure (someone already brought this up) when the power is regained to the alarms and they chirp for a second. Will this be enough to set it off or is there intelligence in it to only trigger for an event which is long enough?

I'll try to call them and see if I can find out the details. If it turns out to be too sensitive, I may just apt for a few strategically placed wireless fire alarms in the house. I still have 20 or so wireless zones I'm not using anyway on my panel.

Thanks aga> I looked up a link for them.

They want to monitor

Frank, read the post. I said that no one here would probably recommend that. I put the probably in since I cannot speak for any one but myself. however this has been gone over before, and the feelings of most are pretty obvious.

The rest of your post... right on the money.

I had been deliberately ignoring this thread. Olson is wrong.

the probably in since I cannot speak for any one but

pretty obvious.

smoke alarms over a PLC or "X-10" type system. Tell me

anyone here would recommend using this as an alarm

line type system to operate reliably enough for a

propose installing) an AC smoke detector as a life safety

The *proper* way to provide fire detection in any

a listed burglar or fire panel. Of course, Bass

detector to a listed burg panel, it magically

the face) that you *can't* tie in an AC smoke alarm to

definitions listed in NFPA) to support his argument

Trust your family's lives on line carrier technology? What if the AC was out when the fire started? Does line carrier junk work over a dead AC line?

| >

| >

ONe question would be; do line carrier devices transmit anything if the ac sine wave is non-existant? I'm *guessing* - not.

| > After looking at their website, code or not, I just could not trust a power | > line type system to operate reliably enough for a life safety application |

You guessed right.

No. You haven't been "deliberately ignoring this thread". If you did that (using the browser you're using), it wouldn't have even shown up and you couldn't have responded. What you're doing is "deliberately avoiding *responding* to this thread. The reason for that's obvious to anyone with a heartbeat.

I'm not sure I understand this comment. How would I be trusting my family's lives on line carrier line technology?

Today (already installed in the house before I purchased it) I have an existing AC Fire Alarm system with battery backup. In the event of a power failure and a fire, the alarm will go off and notify everyone in the house to evacuate.

So my question is - how would this functionality any different than a system hooked to the panel if say the alarm's circuit board fails or the phone line melts? The fire alarms should operate and go off in both cases will in the event of detecting smoke but without any monitoring notification. Shouldn't it be exactly the same functionally?

Right now the system I have for fire is standalone and obviously not monitored, but how is it any different functionality-wise if I hooked into the panel over carrier line technology than not having it hooked in at all? It would still be the same system I have today. So I'm not sure how I would be trusting my family's life on this?

My only thought was to possibly add in remote monitoring to my existing system to add additional protection while I'm NOT home. And yes, I understand if the power fails the system connectivity to the panel would fail rendering the system completely useless (i.e. no remote monitoring would be possible.) But once again, how is this any different than what I have today? No difference and still no remote monitoring.

Actually, I really thank everyone for taking the time to provide their suggestions and comments on the subject. I gained a lot of valuable information on this topic and I will probably just install a few strategically placed wireless fire alarms throughout the house (as this seems to be the more preferred approach.)

Honestly, I didn't mean to do any "trolling" on the subject, but it definitely seems like very debated discussion topic from what I can tell now! Oh yeah, one final thing.. for those of you who are wondering

- NO, I'm not trying to install a faulty monitoring system to off my family in a house fire so I can collect on the insurance money!!

Anyhow, many thanks!

Crash Gord> Trust your family's lives on line carrier technology?

I believe for line carrier to work (send a signal) there actually have to be AC sine wave present, which means it won't work if there's no AC.

I don't know about others but when I do residential fire, not only do I run the smokes in firewire, but also; power, siren, keypad and fone...not that the wire is fire proof but at least it may last a little longer.

(sigh)