Garage Door Opener keypad recommendations

RHC: Obviously I was talking about the door leading from the garage into the house. A lot of people fail to lock this door, assuming the garage door down affords proper protection. Maybe it does, but not when the door isn't locked,doesn't fit properly, and the wind is howling outside.

Sorry, I kinda thought it was obvious that was the door I was talking about.....

In my situation, the door between the garage and the house is locked with a deadbolt operated by a pushbutton keypad.

Yes, I could also put a similar lock on the outside garage man door, but such a lock suitable for outdoor use is much more expensive than the door opener keypad, not to mention that I'd used my Genie keypad for years, so when that failed, the obvious solution was to replace that with something more reliable, rather than going a different route.

Oh.

However. Unless I don't have any other choice I don't use roller ball switches on doors. I think it's been pretty well documented that all it takes is a grain of sand or a paint chip to jam a roller ball switch in the closed position.

Nah, I probably missed it in the thread someplace.

How about looking at it from this point of view? Since the Genie lasted "for years" you may find that you could buy two or three Genie pads for the same cost of the newer/better/longer lasting device. They're not that hard to install. They make them wireless so that they don't have to provide for a remote (anti-tamper) module which is the reason for the increased cost of a hardwired device. If the battery change is a problem with the Genie, with a little research you could find and hardwire in a DC plug in power supply in place of the Genie battery. Leaving it a wireless keypad eleiminates someone pulling it off the wall and bypassing it.

I agree with you on rollerballs. I swear I've seen friggin painters cut around a recessed switches and paint right over the roller 'disc" switch in doors in the same house. Then, of course, they close the door to let the paint dry...

RHC: I guess we differ somewhat on that point. I have used thousands of roller balls on doors and had less than half a dozen give me any type of trouble. And then, it can be as you say...dirt jamming the switch, but more often it's some idiot who's painted over the thing, disabling it. I've also used thousands of buried magnetic switches too, and these give me far more trouble, since they don't have the gap "forgiveness" inherent in a roller ball contact. They seem to give trouble when 1- the customer forgets to lock the door and the wind blows it open enough to trigger the alarm, or 2- when some idiot originally installed it at a downward angle, thereby limiting the gap length before it triggers.

I guess they both have inherent problems but a quality roller ball is IMO no more trouble than a magnetic switch. And as always, it usually comes down to improper application or installation.

What's wrong with that is that a roller ball will fail and you don't know it. The mag switch fails open.

I'd agree with you on the inherent problems if you're using standard magnet recessed contacts. But now ..... with the newer Rare Earth magnets, there's no problem at all with the issues you cited. You just have to be careful the Rare Earth magnets don't pull the fillings out of your teeth.

RHC: Yeah, any roller ball contacts that failed were usually determined by a trouble call where the client opened the door and a motion triggered the alarm. Customers don't check their alarm systems whatsoever, and the don't notice things until they have an open zone or one that triggers an alarm.

Rare earth magnets have definately improved things overall. Now you do have a bit more than just opening the door a crack before the zone opens. I still prefer the tolerance of a roller ball though, and as long as they remain as trouble free as I have found them to date, I'll likely stick with them when the frame of the door allows it. One minor side benefit - when a client changes only the door and not the frame, it's one less service call. Nor do they cause another problem I've seen with magnetic contacts where the magnet ends up falling out of the door on occasion.

Bottom line, I stock all sorts, colours and lengths of either magnetic and roller ball. Sometimes you get out there, and you just don't know what you'll find....

When I first started installing, I worked for a company here that has long since disappeared, and I have a bushel basket full of assorted contacts of all different types, colours and connecting ends that I can draw on when I find a weird situation that I have to deal with.

Of course we can both cite different experiences. With regard to your setting off the motion detector as the indication that the door switch isn't opening, .... I've had instances where people stop hearing the entry warning beep and think that the sounder has gone bad and simply keep arming and disarming the system, not realizing that the door switch is bad.

Magnet falling out of door? I can only say that if an installer doesn't silicone the switch and magnet in the door they deserve the service call.

One question I have about the use of roller ball switches, ............ since their "play" seems to be a primary factor in your use of them, why wouldn't you use a push button on the jamb side of the door that has a greater throw and would MUCH less succumb to changes in the door-to-jamb gap? I'm guessing that a roller ball switch has a throw of about 3/16 ths of an inch, whereas a pushbutton switch would have at least a 5/16ths inch throw.

I very rarely use a roller ball switch for anything unless I have no other choice because it has such a small throw tolerance as compared to a pushbutton switch.

Both the push button and roller ball switches now contain micro switches but in years past, in the land before micro switches, there was only the Ademco 116 push button switch. There was only that choice for door contacts if you didn't use a serface mount switch. Although after about 10 years or so in use, they could give you a real pain in the ass, they had about a 1/2 throw on them and once installed hardly ever needed an adjustment. I still have some jobs where they don't get used much and are still in service after 30 or so years. And because of the more powerfull spring, they hardly ever got hung up when used on doors. During the years while the microswitch type pushbuttons were being introduced I kept trying to get the manufacturers to lengthen the throw on them and increase the spring pressure but they never did. That's when I started using the recessed mags more and more.

On occasion I'll have to utilize what was already installed on a job and when I do, if it's a hinge jamb switch, I'll use a pushbutton over a roller ball just to gain the greater throw.

RHC: Yeah, quite so. One of the many reasons why I am increasingly fussy about doing takeovers from other companies - especially those that traditionally use subcontractors !

RHC: Frankly, there's little differentiation between the two for all practical purposes. Talking about "play", I sometimes find a job where the installer has put a magnetic contact on the hinge side of the door....???? ....the door then has to be opened about two feet before the zone shows open. Some people's children !!!!!!!!

Also talking about takeovers, here are the rules I use when I go on premises to potentially "takeover" another account. After opening the box, if there is no kind of wiring diagram on the inside of the door...strike 1. If the installer has only left about an inch of wire, rather than the normal six inches of service wire on the loop...strike

1. If the can is not neat, nor organized, I can only assume that the hidden parts of the alarm are the same way....strike three and he's out ! Of course, when you open the can and see the following, it's an automatic "OUT"

1- A ball of wires fall out and the owner says, "oh, those are the windows which have never been hooked up" 2- You know there are several motions on the system, but only one wire is coming into the box...#$$%$# 3- Colour coding of wires is not consistent 4- The type of wire leading away from a motion or keypad is not the same type of wire coming into the alarm can 5- One or more motions are simply hanging from the wall with no logical explanation why from the owner. 6- The owner proudly announces he installed the system himself...(I'm outa there....)

As well, when I come up to the house, if I see a generic sticker, or no sticker at all.....or....I see the stickers from one of four local companies that no one will touch due to known poor installations !! ...or I see the stickers from a company I know went out of business 20 years ago.....my guard goes up !!

Just like it makes little sense to spend the money on an alarm system, if you haven't taken the time to secure the home physically (at least to a minimal degree), it also doesn't make sense to take on a potentially problem ridden alarm unless the client is willing to pay to have it brought up to spec ! Why buy a bag of shit for a few bucks a month, if your time is going to be eaten up with needless future service calls ??

I've managed to put 1100 alarms on line with only two people including myself available for service, and we have lots of spare time to ourselves. I believe the next "glass ceiling" comes around 1200 accounts, but we may have been able to extend this past this point by being careful of systems we choose to take on.

I'd be interested to hear the criteria you use for takeovers.......

Both the push button and roller ball switches now contain micro switches but in years past, in the land before micro switches, there was only the Ademco 116 push button switch. There was only that choice for door contacts if you didn't use a serface mount switch. Although after about 10 years or so in use, they could give you a real pain in the ass, they had about a 1/2 throw on them and once installed hardly ever needed an adjustment.

=========================================================== I have been reading this very long thread. All very interesting. And it seems that most are opinions are what all feel comfortable with. Still good conversation.

I would like to interject this little diddy.

About a year ago I was told by the GRI rep that their "Dome" switch is not mechanical. That it had a reed switch and magnet inside. Never got around to tearing one apart since I have not come across a bad one just yet. Don't need to destroy a good one just to see if he was right.

Anyone else heard of this??

Later,

Les

The original KEP-1 unit lasted for years. The replacement died after

8-10 months. And reading the online reviews for this unit, that seems to be the experience of the majority of reviewers, which is why I didn't want to put in something I expected to need replacement in short order. And for something like this, which isn't frequently used, it's even more important to have reliability, otherwise the fact that it died again would be discovered at a most inopportune time (per Murphy).

Putting in a battery powered keypad that was wired to an AC adapter was something I had mentioned doing in an early post. However, when I started looking again at those units, I realized that most are not learning devices; they're paired with the receiver from the same company, which means I'd have to put in a second receiver... or replace the receiver, along with the extra remotes (my primary vehicle has HomeLink, so that could just be reprogrammed.)

Yesterday I dissected my existing KEP-1 and discovered the problem. The physical keypad is fine. In fact, from its design it seems like it should be pretty immune to moisture. What happened is the connection between the keypad and the controller was bad. For those not familiar, the keypad connects using a flat mylar 'cable' with embedded conductors, which allows running it behind a jamb, trim piece, etc. What happened is the mylar became brittle and the conductive trace cracked, disabling a column of keys, including the one to activate the door after the code is entered.

I was first going to try and replace the mylar cable with my own wiring, but soon realized that it wasn't practical to make the connections. In fact, the keypad and cable are all one piece of giant PCB (actually, two layers,) with no way to make a good mechanical connection. And soldering just melts the mylar instantly.

So what I'm going to do is get a good matrix keypad and wire that to the controller. I've found a few weather resistant models on the Internet, and I'll mount it in a box with a weatherproof cover.

I also plan on testing the door opener keypad as part of my monthly alarm test.

I have a GE-Sentrol magnetic contact switch on my overhead door. It's designed for floor mounting, though it's can also be located at the top of the door.

I have recently been schooled in why the contacts should not be put at the top of the door.

It seems some thieves have gotten into the habit of using sledges or some such to break the rollers off the bottom panels of the doors and folding said panels up out of the way thus gaining access.

At least that's the way it was explained to me.

Here, on some commercial buildings, they punch in the lower sections of the door with the bumper of a vehicle. That's why, in higher security requirement jobs, I always suggest a Photo electric eye across the overhead door. In some cases on commercial jobs and sometimes residential jobs, if the interior environment will allow it, I'll put in a dual tech motion detector. Sentrol (or whatever they're called now) has an excellent dualtech with controlled range adjustment so that if the door is metal it wont pick up the microwave bounce or will it penetrate a fiberglass or wooden door .... elemiating false trips.

Well, it's just that I find that the most problems one has with door "buttons" is that the door expands/contracts, hinges come loose, door hinges get sprung, house settles ...... whatever ...... changing the gap between the door and the frame. So any additional distance I can get ..... I want. Rollerballs have a lesser excursion than a push button.

I tried that once on purpose for some casement (crank-out) windows. Because the customer wanted to be able to open the windows a small gap. It worked fine for that but what happened was ...... as the wind would move the window back and forth .... it would gradually open more and more through the day and eventually false alarm. Never counted on that. Had to rewire the windows. Customer shared the cost since he was the one who insisted that I do it. ( and I was dumb enough to try it)

Not as methodical as you but it's just the general appearence of the job. Sometimes, (with it all documented in the bill of sale) I'll take over a s....t job with the contingency that I'll correct the problems as they occur with due compensation. Sometimes it's easier to piece the job together over a longer period of time to ease the pain of a complete re-installation. I can't tell you a specific point or give a list but I'd guess it's about the same. By the way, I don't do that many. Maybe 2,3,4 a year. Sometimes none. Mostly do new work or complete replacement. Lately I'm doing more home theater than alarms. No RMR but really good money on the line. People will gladly pay whatever amount is called for to get their home entertainment. Unlike alarm systems.

I'm going to look into that dual tech motion detector. There's an outdoor PIR in the garage, but it has a history of falses, the cause of which I've never been able to determine.

It's the Sentrol AR435. and there's another one with a longer range. I think Sentrol was taken over by GE, so I don't know if you cant still see them under the Sentrol name or not.

It's a real stable dual technology motion detector. Just keep in mind that you can't use two or more of them within the vicinity of each other. It's the only dual tech that I know of that you can control the actual range that the microwave will detect motion.