Dual Tech motion detectors with dual relay outputs ?

Hi Marc,

If you don't mind tapping the LED circuit that's probably going to be your best bet other than separate detectors. Rokonet is not the only brand with separate LEDs for PIR, µWave and alarm.

Visonic's K-980D has an LED indicator that you might find more useful. The green LED flashes to indicate PIR trip and comes on steady for µWave trip. The red LED and the relay activate for alarm (PIR + µWave). Here's a URL:

Thanks Robert,

The Visonic K-980D would seemingly work too -- assuming that the specifics of how to access the LED and its mode of powering are amenable to the hack. I'd use the first blink of the green LED to trigger a monostable timer to actuate a relay for a few seconds. That relay would provide the output of the "occupancy" detector. The factory relay would provide the "intrusion" detector.

If I were to use two physically separate motion detectors (PIR and Dual Tech), am I correct in assuming that -- all else equal -- a Quad PIR would provide fewer falses than a Dual PIR with almost as quick a response? If the detector has to scratch its head for much more than a second or so, it's not an improvement over what I've already tried and rejected.

I've been working on this lighting path project ("Lighting Vectors") off and on for 7-8 years. Time to get it done ...

With the renewed emphasis on daylight harvesting and energy conservation one would think that a dual output model (occupancy and intrusion) would be commercially available. Of course that would mean acknowledging limitations of dual tech sensors ;-) What am I missing here ?

... Marc

best bet other than separate detectors. Rokonet is not

green LED flashes to indicate PIR trip and comes on

• µWave). Here's a URL:

That should work.

Yes, a quad PIR *should* be more stable than a dual, all else being the same.

By vectors do you mean direction of travel as in "occupant entering" vs "occupant exiting"? If so, have you looked at the Visonic SPY series detectors? If you place one in the ceiling or wall just inside a door and another just outside you can count occupants. It's not perfect. You'd need to incorporate a function to clear a room if there's no activity for n minutes.

The problem is that dual outputs would add to the cost. Since the vast majority of users (alarm companies and DIYers) only want/need a single, form "A" output, that's what alarm manufacturers are churning out.

Not a thing. From previous threads you've apparently got a good handle on how things are in the trade. :^)

If you want to try a few different detectors to see which works best for the app let me know. As long as they're in new condition I'll let you experiment and send back what you don't need.

That looks like the ideal solution. I'll see if it's available in the US if you like, Marc.

Looks like a "hot opportunity" there Bob... They're actually looking for distributors in the US. Of course, telling them that you're "big" on Paradox (selling thousands of units a day) probably won't help. And while the detector itself looks good (on paper), there's no one in the US or Canada with any experience with the unit. You will now tell us all how marvelous the thing is and how easy it is to install...

Actually it *is* available (in Canada at least). You can email me for the details, Marc.

Marc,

The above link was broken. I checked GE Security. They don't seem to have anything with dual outputs like the Pyronix (UK) unit. Unless someone is able to order the Pyronix model stateside it looks like you'll need to solder onto the status LED.

Nawww... All he has to do is email me and I'll send him the contact information for the Pyronix Authorized Distributor here (in Canada).

I didn't read all the replies in this thread so you may have been already advised of the following.

Sentrol makes dual tech motion detectors that you can shut off the PIR or the Microwave detection. If you had to and you set one with PIR detection and one with Microwave detection, would that solve your problem?

Also .... I don't know how much you know about the difference between PIR detectors and Microwave detectors.

You're project sounds as if timing is an important factor but I don't know how exact you're planing on needing.

Just in case, ..... I think that where you mount the detectors, in the path of movement will be a most significant factor, as PIR detectors are most sensitive with cross motion, while microwave detectors are most sensitive to toward and away motion. Also, the moving object that you want to detect will have some impact on the sensitivity of the detectors. Lots of metal or RF reflective items will cause a microwave device to detect quicker than soft plyable material. Heat sources or material that is highly reflective of infrared light will cause a PIR to detect quicker than will cooler or IR absorbent material. Also ... with PIR's, the ambient temperature and lighting can either enhance or inhibit the sensitivity also.

You may find that the inherent variables of the detectors is too wide a spectrum.

Frank and Robert. Thank you both. It is indeed what I asked for.

Question remains whether what I asked for was actually what I need, or the result of knowing just enough to ask the wrong question ;-) See my response to Jim.

The Pyronix TMD 15 (Two-Movement Detector) referenced can be set up with "interdigitated field of view". Their literature also refers to " 2 non-overlapping detectors in 1 robust housing" which I would not have interpreted correctly. The term "interdigitated" and the explanatory diagram provided make it clear that all three detectors (PIR + uWave and second PIR ) are aimed at the same volume of space but measure different portions of it. This is different from two non-contiguous, "non-overlapping" detectors in my mind.

Thanks again ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

Frank and Robert. Thank you both. It is indeed what I asked for.

Question remains whether what I asked for was actually what I need, or the result of knowing just enough to ask the wrong question ;-) See my response to Jim.

The Pyronix TMD 15 (Two-Movement Detector) referenced can be set up with "interdigitated field of view". Their literature also refers to " 2 non-overlapping detectors in 1 robust housing" which I would not have interpreted correctly. The term "interdigitated" and the explanatory diagram provided make it clear that all three detectors (PIR + uWave and second PIR ) are aimed at the same volume of space but measure different portions of it. This is different from two non-contiguous, "non-overlapping" detectors in my mind.

Thanks again ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

I received a Bosch DS835Ti. These are moderately priced, widely available, small, and presumably 'Pretty Good Dual Tech detectors.

It has a bi-color LED that goes green when PIR fires, yellow for uWave and is red when both LEDs are lit, when the relay is also activated. The three LED traces (+1, +2 and GND) on the PCB are immediately next to where the two-position screw connector block for the tamper connection would go (the DS835iT has tamper, the DS8335i has the same PCB but no block). So it's a simple matter to re-purpose the tamper position and solder in two more screw connector terminals. I will probably solder in pulldown resistors and a LM393 'dead-spider'-fashion in order to buffer the inputs and bring the outputs up to the 13.8vdc supply.

So the "Intrusion" system will conventionally use the built-in relay of high-mounted DS835Ti.

And the "Occupancy" sensing for 'lighting path' will separately report both the uWave and PIR from the DS835Ti's .

I will then supplement the "Occupancy" system with additional downward firing Visonic Spy 4 PIR's in well-chosen locations.

Thanks to all ...Marc Marc_F_Hult

I like the Bosch "DS835Ti". Not to be too picky I think it is the DS835i or DS835iT where the "T" refers to the model with a built in (anti) tamper switch, something you might not need actually. Bosch makes another model that has the same electronics inside but the option for more accessories that you might find useful for your application. Therefore the Bosch Blue Line ISM-BLD1-P might be a better choice. See the many accessories available here (including a night light).

You didn't ask, but if I were doing this and it were a "home" project, I'd be using two "completely different" technologies choosing one each from each of the following 3: ..... motion, photo beam and stress sensor.

That is, ....... I wouldn't use two from the same technology.

Good point. (although IR and uWave are entirely different technologies -- speaking as a geophysicist ;-) And an since we are making fine distinctions ;-) I've never much liked the term "stress sensors" as applied here. The sensors typically used response to _strain_.

Our floors are mostly antique, bare wood (not carpeted) and getting under the flooring is an issue. Our house was built in 1821 and I don't like tearing up the floor boards for what is a short-term (10-15 years ?) for the whims and convenience for the current owners (that would be us ;-).

Using An IR Motion detector as a "wall" as I now plan using the Visonic Spy

The main problem with the photo-beam approach is that for our particular application, it is not-trivial to make it unobtrusive. A surface-mount photo-beam at person-height is out of the question on aesthetic grounds.

A valuable suggestion nonetheless that I might be able to integrate. I presume that there are unobtrusive ones that I just don't know about. I have a number of Banner industrial beams and sensors. At least one of the applications goes past a framed-in closet area where I can get into the wall easier than into solid brick walls. On the closet side I could have two small peep holes for the beams. On the brick side, it would be easy enough to embed a piece of mirror in a hole small enough and deep enough so that it is dark and not visually obvious. Or ... ?

For a narrow space like a hallway, air pressure sensors might also apply (with attendant falsing problems). The Brits use these some, but seems esoteric/unpredictable to me.

Thanks for your continuing suggestions and observations ... Marc

Marc_F_Hult

Yes, I mistyped. Thanks for the correction. What I have is the DS835i which conveniently has solder pads on the PCB for the two screw-terminals that are included with the DS835iT for the tamper relay which I don't need. So I can 'repurpose' them as I wrote before.

Good suggestion! The camera add-on, combined with a balun to be able to use a single CAT5, is attractive to me because it is one less bit of ceiling/wall acne. Although cameras _inside_ the house might be a bit of a sell ...

... Marc Marc_F_Hult

Marc,

There are some photo beams that come without a conventional housing. Basically, you get an emitter and a sensor, each attached to a wire. They're very small and can be worked into a cabinet, door frame or whatever during construction. Unfortunately, from what you've shared about your home, they would be a royal pain to install there. Also, they are a bit on the pricey side. The make and model number escapes me at the moment but if you're interested in knowing, give me a shout during the work and I'll find ot.

BTW, from the image of the Pyronix sensor, I doubt it would score high on the WAF scale. It's pretty large and kind of commercial looking.