DSC Power 832 Puzzle (Long)

Disclaimer: This is largely a DIY setup, but I hope you will agree that it has been very carefully done (in major part by alarm pros), and that this is a serious inquiry.

Setup: Power 832 5010, 2 LCD5500 Keypads, 5208 PGM board, Escort 5580 board, 5108 zone board, 5132 wireless board. All window and door sensors hard-wired, 4 PIRs hard wired, 2 key fobs (in cars) on the wireless board. No additional wireless sensors. All programming using DLS 2002 (which shows no errors).

The physical system has shown no errors since installation in June 2003. Except for HA programming on the Escort board in the last few weeks that involved changing PGM 3 to 10 attributes on the main board, there have been no additional recent changes. No errors have occurred with the HA (X10) portion of the system in the 2 or so weeks since the Escort programming changes.

On Friday 16 Sep in the afternoon I armed the system in "away" mode to run a few errands. About 10 minutes after my departure the basement PIR sent a series of alarms to the monitoring station and I was contacted. Returned home to disarm the system and check the premises, but no physical intrusion observed. No pets or other persons in this home, etc.

I put the alarm into test with the monitoring company, put the system into section 901 installer "walk-thru" test mode, and tried to check the basement PIR. At this point the system crashed and I was unable to use the keypads. I tried for about an hour to recover, but no go. Frustrated, I removed the AC and the battery, vowing to extract my revenge the next day.

On the next day, I removed all wiring from the main board. The wiring was unfortunately a bit of a rats nest, following the initial installation (by the builder's sub), some work by an alarm pro friend (who added the PIRs and the zone expansion board and got me started with the programming about 2 years ago, and myself (who added the wireless, the 5208, the Escort, and probably a few other things).

Removing, labeling, and cleaning up the wiring took a very long time, but it was done with care. I used a small 66 punch-down board to connect the main bus wires from all the expansion boards to the main board, and to connect all the PIR aux wires to the main board aux terminals. All connections were tested carefully prior to reinstalling.

While the main board was "naked" I defaulted the panel by shorting the PGM "1" and the Zone "1" pins. Following re-connection of all wiring (in stages) I powered up the panel with no errors, re-assigned the keyboards (slots 7 and 8), and re-downloaded the panel using the backup from the DLS

2002 software.

All went "per design" and the system appears to be working perfectly, including the basement PIR that seemed to be the initial culprit. However I am a little spooked by this incident, since we tend to go away for days at a time. I am now looking at the setup with just a bit of suspicion.

I am (obviously) a DIYer (although a careful one), and I am wondering if the pros have any constructive comments on what might have happened..

You have some power hungry devices there as well. Is the battery the original battery and what size is it? You may want to go from a 12V4ah, if that is what you have to a 12V7ah seeing as how you are not always at home. It's only been two + years since you had the system installed, but don't let that dictate whether to consider the battery or not. Batteries can go bad. I don't know if there were any power outages during your alarm, (even a short blimp). Have you had any extended outages since the system was first installed? Figure out your amp draw and do a load test on the system. If the battery isn't holding, it can cause a false on a power device (motion). The other thing that comes to mind, is the basement damp. Slightest bit of condensation on the PIR board could also do it as well.

snip

Armond You have grossly exceeded the capability of your power supply. Before you do anything else, read the installation manual pp 7-8 regarding current ratings of the modules and accessories. You will need an auxiliary power supply like a PC5204. js

Heh, thats an understatement :)

You probably have 2 distinct problems here- A PIR that falsed, and a power draw problem.

(even a short blimp).

just can't leave BAss out of it can you! :)

Bob, Stan, and alarman have probably nailed down the major issue with my system: not enough power. I get different answers on the power draw depending upon which set of _DSC-supplied_ data I employ, but basically it looks like this:

2 LCD 5500Z keyboards 170 ma

PC 5108 zone expander 35 ma

PC 5132 wireless board 130 ma

Escort 5580TC 150 ma

PC 5208 PGM board 20 ma

2 Ademco Aurora PIR 8 ma

2 Ademco 998 PIR 30 ma

Total draw (approx) 543 ma

Since the Power 832 is rated to supply 550 ma, this is entirely too close for comfort. I unplugged the transformer and removed the battery immediately after reading the responses to my post. I will install a PC

5204 with battery and transformer as soon as they arrive.

Since I have been running this system for about 2 years with such a large draw, is there any chance that the power supply on the main board could have suffered permanent damage? Right now everything seems OK when I power the system up.

Yes and no..

we had a few case like yours here where a home owner would call his friend to had some device on there system and exceeded the max power output of the panel..it lasted for 2+ years till the battery started to pull more power to keep at the good voltage..

if you power the panel with only a keypad (to create a load on the power supply) and the battery and you can measure what is the power going to the combus with a voltmeter,test for a 13.8 volt..or around it..

then remove the battery and check if its about the same voltage...

anything below 13 volt mean you could have a problem..

remember this at the combus or auxiliary power output (black and red) not at the battery cause the panel usually check the battery by lowering the voltage to it from time to time and this could lead you to a bad conclusion...

by the way..where did you got your stuff from?

an online web site or your friend?

"Arm>> "Arm>>>

I guess I unknowingly made a funny. Good catch!

Good idea. I will try this test.

I hope the test indicates no permanent damage to the main board. My wife is getting a little bored with my alarm hardware purchases at this stage of the game. This morning I ordered a 5204, a transformer, 2 _new_ batteries, and metal box for some of this gear, etc. I am going to run this way assuming that the power supply on the main board will be sufficiently OK once the

5204 is supplying power.

Part of the gear was supplied by the builder's subcontractor, part by my alarm pro friend's local supplier, and part via online purchases. All the gear is DSC, and all of the accessories (batteries, transformers, boxes, etc.) are identical to the originals supplied by the builder. BTW, why did you ask (just curious)?

The primary power draw problem with your configuration occurs when the system goes into alarm (but you knew that) since the siren draws a big amount of juice. The start-up of a self driven 12vdc siren (or more than one) is an even bigger (at least double the siren's rated draw current), albeit temporary and very short surge of juice, which is usually enough to cause the CPU do do funny stuff- such as locking up, failing to dial out, or dying a quick electronic death. Other devices also use slightly more power when in an alarm condition, such as motion or smoke sensors, and the CPU itself is working harder, drawing slightly more juice.

With your configuration, I would do 3 things- address the standby current issues by installing a DSC power supply module, install at least a 12vdc 7ah backup battery, and run a 12vdc low-draw relay off of the siren output, hooking up fused power directly from the battery through the relay to the sirens.

You also have a motion sensor that falsed. Is the wire nicked somewhere, causing a ground fault swinger when the humidity rises? Have you sprayed for spiders lately? Kids leave any mylar balloons in that room? Anything hanging from the wall or ceiling that moves when the a/c kicks on? Any mirrors in sight of the detector? House mouse close to the detector? Motion mounted loosely on the wall? Motion sensor old? Motion sealed against insects properly? Have ghosts? ;)

Your panel is probably fine- I've found the PC5010 to be pretty bulletproof. Just be sure to test it thoroughly after you make any changes- trip stuff that draws the maximum amount of current, and leave it in alarm condition for several minutes. If it communicates properly and doesn't do anything strange when resetting it, it should work fine during a real alarm event.

Well your first reaction (power system down, then power up) was a first good step. This often gets rid of the 'panel hardware issues' and glitches with programming, like you had with the HA. If the system powers up and operates fine (remove your power devices except one KP to test) then you can start looking at other possible causes.

You definately need more 12V power. All too often as a technician I had to install systems with inadequate power. Only after problems developed would I go back and install an aux power supply, but when you're a lowly technician you never know more than a professional alarm salesman, but I digress. Since you've added to your system, you've changed the power requirements from the original installation. Your decision to order and install a power supply is a good one.

If the problem continues, I'd seriously look at the motion detector. When motion problems occur, I first think about what type of detector is installed. You've got 40 lb pet immune and a regular detector. Which one falsed? If it's the Aurora, replace it; if it's under warranty great, if not it's a small cost for a reliable alarm system.

If the 998 is the culprit, it has a 6 year warranty. So consider replacing it if all else is fine.

A couple of weeks ago I spent 1.5 hours troubleshooting a 7 year old PC5010 installation only to finally discover that the PC5018 board had two bad zone input terminals. Fun stuff this alarm system troubleshooting is....

Julian

"Armond Perretta" a écrit dans le message de news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com...

Just to know if we are doing tech support for some lame website owner that regularly post POS message here and doesn't support his customer

Keep this in mind. If you have a power shortage and one of your powered devices (ie motion detector) is the furthest away from the power source (ie resistance-wise) it is that detector that is going to "drop out" first.

OR .... if the device is drawing or requires the most current, it will also, be among the first to "drop out".

I am adding the PC 5204 (plus battery plus transformer).

I ordered 2 new Power Sonic 12 v 5 ah batteries, one for the PC5010 and the other for the PC5204. I cannot fit a 7 ah battery into the main panel box without trashing the box and altering the entire setup and all wiring..

I don't understand the wiring for this. Is this a common technique, and if so can you give a reference for the circuit?

Almost certainly not. The sensor (Ademco 998) is in the basement and all the wiring is exposed. Additionally there has been no activity or alterations anywhere in the vicinity of the wiring since it was installed.

No, but I will look into this.

All good ideas for further investigation. Is there an online supplier for ghost detectors?

More seriously, is there a chance that the somewhat excessive current draw that characterized the earlier setup could itself have triggered the Ademco

998 (which is rated to draw between 15 and 18 ma)?

Answering my own post, but ... According to the Ademco literature:

Troubleshooting/Intermittent or Continuous Alarm: DC voltage supplied to the detector is inadequate, intermittent, or polarity reversed.

When in doubt, RTFM.

And since pirs take a moment or two to stablize after a flakey power outage add that to current overdraw and possible flakey battery...bada bing.

| > More seriously, is there a chance that the somewhat excessive current draw | > that characterized the earlier setup could itself have triggered the Ademco | > 998 (which is rated to draw between 15 and 18 ma)? | >

| > -- | Keep this in mind. If you have a power shortage and one of your powered | devices (ie motion detector) is the furthest away from the power source | (ie resistance-wise) it is that detector that is going to "drop out" | first. | | OR .... if the device is drawing or requires the most current, it will | also, be among the first to "drop out". |

Or as Mila's character in "The Fifth Element" stated... "Big bada boom" :-))