Commercial Burg

Have you ever done a UL system before? There are a lot of guidelines, and it will be inspected.

On the bright side, the book that tells you all about UL's guidelines, Standard 681, retails for a mere $500.

You might want to verify if they need you, the alarm company to be UL, in this area (Southern California) most jewelry stores and/or their insurance companies require the whole thing to be UL, the installing company. the monitoring company and the installed equipment.

Doug

You can't do a UL system unless you, the alarm company are UL listed.

Doug

The individual AND the company, or just the company?

Because if that's the case, ADT & me broke the rules. I never got a UL listing on myself.

That's already verified by the owner in a phone conversation with his agent. Installing company NOT required to be UL. Only the equipment needs to be as well as the Central Station.

I am more interested at this point as to what equipment meets the requirement, can get it and support the stuff.

Thanks,

Les

RHC: Les, I do know that DSC equipment meets the requirements but only if it is installed a certain way, including certain software options being followed. In each of their panels, there is a form that covers all that has to be done. And if you use any recognized monitoring station, it will be UL certified. Beyond that, I don't know....

You'll need double eol's on each circuit. You'll need a loud bell with a self-contained power source. Tamper switches on the front and back of bell & panel cans. An electrical outlet dedicated AC circuit, and the cover that tamper-proofs the transformer.

You'll need double balanced contacts, and your cabling needs to be in conduit from the panel, to bell, to the 2nd communicator (cell I guess), and power supply. And get this, they want the phone company to install your RJ-31x's for ya.

Bring plenty of drill bits for the safe sensor. I've burned up

6-8 bits just to get one hole through the metal part on some beasts.

It's all fun and games until some pompous ass that knows little about installation is critiquing your job.

The company

Doug

Along with the ademco panel you will need front and back tampers and a metal assault sensor made by Sentrol you will need the ademco AB UL bell big heavy thing. you should also do some type of back up cellular 2way radio set up

I realize there is a lot to this and I am trying to fill in the blanks.

The customer want me to install the system and he says the Ins. Co. is ok with me doing the project as long as the equipment is UL Commercial Mercantile grade.

So far I understand that the Vista 128BPE with ULKT will serve as the panel. Tamper on Panel Door and rear of cabinet. Double EOLR's or Commercial Bias Contacts Less than 4 step catch Motion Detectors Dedicated Breaker for circuit Cell Back-Up UL Bell??? Some kind of enclosure that contains the power transformer

Is there anything special with central station requirements such as 24 hour test, Supervised Openings/Closings, or anything that would put this over the top of normal??

I want to make sure I get this as right as possible. I am still getting pricing and I may get priced out of the project.

Thanks again.

Les

Ademco makes a UL bell its a big double lined monster expensive o/ c may be required get a copy of 128 instructions it will have a section which gives you all the other stuff.

Ademco makes a UL bell its a big double lined monster expensive o/ c may be required get a copy of 128 instructions it will have a section which gives you all the other stuff.

Thanks Nick,

I was scanning the Install of the V128 but it seems that I missed Appendix A. Thanks very helpful.

But I am still looking for the answer to this question, anybody??.

Is there anything special with central station requirements such as 24 hour test, Supervised Openings/Closings, or anything that would put this over the top of normal??

TIA

Les

Nothing special on central end that I have seen unless insurance company requires it for open close at minimum a weekly test must report ac loss, bypass , and troubles up/ down load must be shut off look at program sheet it will give specific UL requirements how particular settings must be. as to what must be reported.

Nothing special on central end that I have seen unless insurance company requires it for open close at minimum a weekly test must report ac loss, bypass , and troubles up/ down load must be shut off look at program sheet it will give specific UL requirements how particular settings must be. as to what must be reported.

Nick,

Again Thanks!!!

Les

We had a UL inspector almost get his butt shot off when he tested a system with the remote outside keyswitch to see how fast we responded from holmes central and failed to notify police he was testing. when i was with holmes many years ago.

I would spec the Cell backup as a Honeywell GSMHS, check it out here

... The GSMHS has a 200 second Supervision window and is "High Security" (a.k.a. UL AA) rated...

Hi Les,

I haven't investigated or been interested in UL for a long time. However I just thought I'd pass this on, just in case........ Years ago, in order to install UL commercial systems, it wasn't only the equipment and the method of installation that was required but in order to qualify, any company wanting to install UL commercial had to install (I think) 5 systems using all the protocols and equipment and then have them inspected ( for a fee) by UL) These systems could not be sold as UL certified so you just had to install them for someone at your expense for the additional cost of parts and procedures. Once the all those installation passed your company was certified and then you could obtain a certificate for subsequent UL installs and UL would come out occasionally and inspect. You had to pay for each job cetification and for each inspection and if they found something wrong and they had to come back, you had to pay another inspection fee. The more times they found something wrong the harder they were on you the next time.

All this is from 20 or more years ago. But ..... on the other hand, I know that within the last few years, UL had quite a shake up and was even attending alarm association meetings ( imagine that !! ) across the country trying to tell everyone how they had streamlined their operation. So it's quite possible that the requirements are different now.

However, it sure would be hell if you installed this system meeting all the physical requirements and then called for a UL inspector to find out they wouldn't come because you hadn't qualified.

I ultimately decided not to go that route because of the bureacratic BS that accompanies any agency like UL and, in my case, the customers typically decided they'd rather pay the increased insurace premieums then pay the thousands of dollars for the UL system. They just had me put in an extra secure system for a much lower price. UL's recent decline (in my opinion) is long overdue. At one time they were the only agency of importance surviving from back in the 30's I think. They formed a legion with insurance companys, who made them the souce of all requirements for alarm systems ( and foolishly many still do, because it's easier then them having to look for another standards lab). Since there was no competition back then, UL became over indulged with self importance and never updated their standards, listing and requirements to meet the changing times and technology. It's only been in recent years, since other labs and listing agencies have become prominent that they woke up and noticed that they were losing business and they got rid of the people who kept it operating back in time.

Something you may want to do when you make the quote, is to make up a seperate quote for a system that will do close to the same thing as the UL system but using normal equipment and protcols. I found that most alarm companys who look to do UL systems are doing it for the rip off prices they can get and so would not even consider offering a lesser system. So doing this just may get you the job. In the case of a jewlery store, if they take all the proper physical and operating precautions that they should take anyway, an extra good normal installation with back up and some double detection just might make them feel comfortable enough to forgo the reduction in insurance premiums. Suggest that they compare the difference. Depends on the size of the business, the value of their product and the reduction of premium.

Hope this helps.

Hi Les,

I haven't investigated or been interested in UL for a long time. However I just thought I'd pass this on, just in case........ Years ago, in order to install UL commercial systems, it wasn't only the equipment and the method of installation that was required but in order to qualify, any company wanting to install UL commercial had to install (I think) 5 systems using all the protocols and equipment and then have them inspected ( for a fee) by UL) These systems could not be sold as UL certified so you just had to install them for someone at your expense for the additional cost of parts and procedures. Once the all those installation passed your company was certified and then you could obtain a certificate for subsequent UL installs and UL would come out occasionally and inspect. You had to pay for each job cetification and for each inspection and if they found something wrong and they had to come back, you had to pay another inspection fee. The more times they found something wrong the harder they were on you the next time.

All this is from 20 or more years ago. But ..... on the other hand, I know that within the last few years, UL had quite a shake up and was even attending alarm association meetings ( imagine that !! ) across the country trying to tell everyone how they had streamlined their operation. So it's quite possible that the requirements are different now.

However, it sure would be hell if you installed this system meeting all the physical requirements and then called for a UL inspector to find out they wouldn't come because you hadn't qualified.

I ultimately decided not to go that route because of the bureacratic BS that accompanies any agency like UL and, in my case, the customers typically decided they'd rather pay the increased insurace premieums then pay the thousands of dollars for the UL system. They just had me put in an extra secure system for a much lower price. UL's recent decline (in my opinion) is long overdue. At one time they were the only agency of importance surviving from back in the 30's I think. They formed a legion with insurance companys, who made them the souce of all requirements for alarm systems ( and foolishly many still do, because it's easier then them having to look for another standards lab). Since there was no competition back then, UL became over indulged with self importance and never updated their standards, listing and requirements to meet the changing times and technology. It's only been in recent years, since other labs and listing agencies have become prominent that they woke up and noticed that they were losing business and they got rid of the people who kept it operating back in time.

Something you may want to do when you make the quote, is to make up a seperate quote for a system that will do close to the same thing as the UL system but using normal equipment and protcols. I found that most alarm companys who look to do UL systems are doing it for the rip off prices they can get and so would not even consider offering a lesser system. So doing this just may get you the job. In the case of a jewlery store, if they take all the proper physical and operating precautions that they should take anyway, an extra good normal installation with back up and some double detection just might make them feel comfortable enough to forgo the reduction in insurance premiums. Suggest that they compare the difference. Depends on the size of the business, the value of their product and the reduction of premium.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, very good input.

Les

Very well said Jim.

What 's the worst that can happen ? The store got broken into and insurance carrier refuse to compensate due to the fact that the installed system is not a UL "certified" system.

Never take the store owner word for it, get it in writing from the insurance agency and also check with the UL office.

Now back to the hardware, pretty much most, if not all, of the hardware been marketed nowadays have UL listing so no big deal there. The biggest concern in a UL system is probably the installation, need a motion sensor in every corner, motion sensor above T-Bar ceiling, holdup buttons everywhere, glassbreak sensor, heat and vibration sensor in the vault, 24 hour backup battery, dual path reporting with scheduled open/close etc. etc.

I am in Canada and the requirement for a commercial ULC system is more or less the same as Jim described. Both installing company and monitoring station have to be listed and pay a large sum of money every year for the listing, inspector come to inspect your installation yearly and you pay for all expenses and a inspection fee. They will ride with you to go to your installation and ask you do open up various thing so they can look at the wiring, tamper and supervisory. The installing company also have to perform a yearly inspection on all their listed system and pay for a certificate for those systems. And who is paying for all that ? You guess right, the customers ......

So if you have never installed a listed system in the past and you are trying to undercut your competition in price, you may end up losing a lot of money over the term of the contract. Or you may have to hand over the completed job to a UL listed company.

Hi Les,

I haven't investigated or been interested in UL for a long time. However I just thought I'd pass this on, just in case........ Years ago, in order to install UL commercial systems, it wasn't only the equipment and the method of installation that was required but in order to qualify, any company wanting to install UL commercial had to install (I think) 5 systems using all the protocols and equipment and then have them inspected ( for a fee) by UL) These systems could not be sold as UL certified so you just had to install them for someone at your expense for the additional cost of parts and procedures. Once the all those installation passed your company was certified and then you could obtain a certificate for subsequent UL installs and UL would come out occasionally and inspect. You had to pay for each job cetification and for each inspection and if they found something wrong and they had to come back, you had to pay another inspection fee. The more times they found something wrong the harder they were on you the next time.

All this is from 20 or more years ago. But ..... on the other hand, I know that within the last few years, UL had quite a shake up and was even attending alarm association meetings ( imagine that !! ) across the country trying to tell everyone how they had streamlined their operation. So it's quite possible that the requirements are different now.

However, it sure would be hell if you installed this system meeting all the physical requirements and then called for a UL inspector to find out they wouldn't come because you hadn't qualified.

I ultimately decided not to go that route because of the bureacratic BS that accompanies any agency like UL and, in my case, the customers typically decided they'd rather pay the increased insurace premieums then pay the thousands of dollars for the UL system. They just had me put in an extra secure system for a much lower price. UL's recent decline (in my opinion) is long overdue. At one time they were the only agency of importance surviving from back in the 30's I think. They formed a legion with insurance companys, who made them the souce of all requirements for alarm systems ( and foolishly many still do, because it's easier then them having to look for another standards lab). Since there was no competition back then, UL became over indulged with self importance and never updated their standards, listing and requirements to meet the changing times and technology. It's only been in recent years, since other labs and listing agencies have become prominent that they woke up and noticed that they were losing business and they got rid of the people who kept it operating back in time.

Something you may want to do when you make the quote, is to make up a seperate quote for a system that will do close to the same thing as the UL system but using normal equipment and protcols. I found that most alarm companys who look to do UL systems are doing it for the rip off prices they can get and so would not even consider offering a lesser system. So doing this just may get you the job. In the case of a jewlery store, if they take all the proper physical and operating precautions that they should take anyway, an extra good normal installation with back up and some double detection just might make them feel comfortable enough to forgo the reduction in insurance premiums. Suggest that they compare the difference. Depends on the size of the business, the value of their product and the reduction of premium.

Hope this helps.