Cheap network dvr 4-8ch

Ebay, Alibaba, AliExpress... You said "cheap" so...

Yes..i mean model to recommend..not site

I think what Bob was trying to say is .... I don't think anyone here would = know which "cheap" unit to recommend. We're all professional installers and= anything we use in not going to be cheap. We have to guarantee and support= the equipment that we install and going back to a job to repair or replace= an item because we used a cheap piece of equipment is not something we do.= It's not profitable and it makes you look bad. All I can say is, Google th= e part that you're looking for and buy the least expensive one. There's no = such thing as good and cheap in the same product.=20

My suggestion (?) Shop around for the product you want. Find the high pri= ce. Find the low price. Buy something in the middle. Be aware of warranty, = shipping and return policies and availability of technical assistance. You = can look at the product lines of Speco Technologies, Everfocus, Dedicated M= icro and Digimerge. I'm not sure if their equipment is available for you to= buy direct but these are some of the popular DVR/NVR manufacturers that i= nstallers use. They're not cheap and will likely not talk to an end user sh= ould you have technical questions.=20

Most of the cheap products come directly from Korea, China, Tiwan etc. They= claim to do all the things the products from the above manufactureres do b= ut.......... there is no or inadequate support, it's highly likely that the= y will not be available in the future, it is difficult to get anything repa= ired because there are no repair or mfg facilities here in the US aaannnnd = ...........you can't understand what the hell they're saying when you call = and ask for information on their product or need technical assistance. = =20

You ask me ..... How do I know all this?=20 Well ...because ONCE ..... Just ONCE, mind you .... I bought one and I'll n= ever do it again.

I have used mostly Dedicated Micros for DVRs for a number of years now. I do have a Pelco unit in service, and while it was a pain to setup it has remained in service for quite a long time. I setup some Falcon DVRs that a customer bought from somebody else and they were a pain in the wazoo needing constant tweaking and service. I recently quoted some DigiMerge stuff, and I have one on the shelf awaiting an install, but I have not installed on yet. I've played with several DVR PC cards, and they are ok at best. Even the Geo Vision some guys like didn't impress me all that much.

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:15:31 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:

snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com... > On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:01:02 PM = UTC-5, DS wrote: >> Yes..i mean model to recommend..not site > > I think wh= at Bob was trying to say is .... I don't think anyone here would > know whi= ch "cheap" unit to recommend. We're all professional installers > and anyth= ing we use in not going to be cheap. We have to guarantee and > support the= equipment that we install and going back to a job to repair or > replace a= n item because we used a cheap piece of equipment is not > something we do.= It's not profitable and it makes you look bad. All I can > say is, Google = the part that you're looking for and buy the least > expensive one. There's= no such thing as good and cheap in the same > product. > > My suggestion (= ?) Shop around for the product you want. Find the high > price. Find the lo= w price. Buy something in the middle. Be aware of > warranty, shipping and = return policies and availability of technical > assistance. You can look at= the product lines of Speco Technologies, > Everfocus, Dedicated Micro and = Digimerge. I'm not sure if their equipment > is available for you to buy di= rect but these are some of the popular > DVR/NVR manufacturers that install= ers use. They're not cheap and will > likely not talk to an end user should= you have technical questions. > > Most of the cheap products come directly= from Korea, China, Tiwan etc. > They claim to do all the things the produc= ts from the above manufactureres > do but.......... there is no or inadequa= te support, it's highly likely > that they will not be available in the fut= ure, it is difficult to get > anything repaired because there are no repair= or mfg facilities here in > the US aaannnnd ...........you can't understan= d what the hell they're > saying when you call and ask for information on t= heir product or need > technical assistance. > > You ask me ..... How do I = know all this? > Well ...because ONCE ..... Just ONCE, mind you .... I boug= ht one and I'll > never do it again. I have used mostly Dedicated Micros fo= r DVRs for a number of years now. I do have a Pelco unit in service, and wh= ile it was a pain to setup it has remained in service for quite a long time= . I setup some Falcon DVRs that a customer bought from somebody else and th= ey were a pain in the wazoo needing constant tweaking and service. I recent= ly quoted some DigiMerge stuff, and I have one on the shelf awaiting an ins= tall, but I have not installed on yet. I've played with several DVR PC card= s, and they are ok at best. Even the Geo Vision some guys like didn't impre= ss me all that much.

I've been using Speco for the most part with a couple of tries with others = but it's a case of ... Even though I think the Speco's that I'm using could= be easier to set up for remote viewing, I'm thinking that if I try another= brand I'm just going to have to learn another whole process. So it's just = "stickin with the problem I'm familiar with rather than dealing with one I'= m not"=20

My next foray is trying some IP cameras. But I'm not going to go out and se= ll anything until I can set one up with an NVR first. I never go through th= e learning curve on the job. So it's just a matter of finding time to inves= t in a day to learn what the details are. I don't have any doubt that I'll = be able to figure it out but mainly I want to be able to find out compariso= ns between analog and IP cameras. For instance, I KNOW what a varifocal len= s will do on an analog camera under given conditions but I don't have that = first hand and similar experience with IP camers. I just have to work with it for a day or so ..... I don't like dissapointin= g surprises on a job after I've made assumptions on what a piece of equipme= nt will do. I'm too freekin picky and I don't ever put my self in a positio= n of not having an answer for my clients or implying something that I can't= deliver because I didn't know the product well enough.=20

I'm figuring that I might set up a networked analog camera and an IP camera= at my home and view them on my laptop to up-sell to IP. It's hard to expla= in to a potential client just how much better the IP picture is ...... with= out a picture.

Jim,

I have done quite a bit of research on IP cameras and NVRs recently. The big thing if the customer is going to max out their number of camera licenses over time going into an NVR is that IT HAS TO BE ITS OWN NETWORK.

I did some calculating using H.264 with good resolution and good frame rates. You can very quickly put a serious load on the bandwidth of a network. IP cameras got popular with IT techs because they could slap one on their network and be up and running in minutes. They put in a POE injector or on a more advanced switch just configure the port for POE and the don't even have to run any wire if the site was wired to modern standards with redundant wire. Literally. Up and running in minutes. Since many IP cameras have onboard storage or the option for onboard storage and they never even bothered with any worries... until they started getting

10-15-20 cameras on their network and they started streaming all of them to a station for a security guard, operations manager, etc. For one or two cameras that are acting as their own DVR they put nearly no load on the network. Only when they are being checked. The onboard storage can be good for a couple days to a month or more depending on the capabilities of the camera, setup, and the storage capacity onboard. Storage affects price, and as rarely as customers check that a single main recorder actually works, they will never individually check every single standalone camera for complete operation.

The big advantage to some of the IP cameras out there is the resolution allows them to do things we have been telling customers is impossible for the last 15-20 years. A single 3 megapixel IP camera can cover all 4 lanes of 2 gas pump islands AND allow them to expand an image and read a license plate. Ok, its not the same as they do on NCIS where they take a blurry image of a city block and recognize somebody from their poorly lit reflection in a car window, but it's a lot better than we have become accustomed to over the years. An order of magnitude better. Cameras with 2 megapixel resolution are common and 3 megapixel or greater with all the IR, weatherproof, vandal resistant, and other features we have grown to use are available.

Now back to NVRs. This last point of paragraph two above alone is an argument for a centralized storage system. "They will never individually check every single standalone camera for complete operation." A good NVR has two NICs. One to go to the clients existing network, and one to go to a separate network switch. Preferably with built in POE. They do not have to run all new network cable. Anyplace they have an available network cable they can just change the patch cable over to the switch managed by the NVR. The cameras can still have onboard storage as backup set as FIFO on an SD card or other internal media, but the NVR is the work horse of the system, and if properly setup puts very minimal load on the customer network. Only when streaming video to a client work station, sending alerts, or backing up data to another storage center. Even then the load is equivalent to only one or two cameras per client connected. In addition an NVR has the ability to manage load on a per camera basis. One with more activity will refresh more often then one with little or no activity. This maximizes the use of data storage over cameras with internal storage.

Bob

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 2:23:39 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: Jim, I have done quite a bit of research on IP cameras and NVRs recently. = The big thing if the customer is going to max out their number of camera li= censes over time going into an NVR is that IT HAS TO BE ITS OWN NETWORK. I = did some calculating using H.264 with good resolution and good frame rates.= You can very quickly put a serious load on the bandwidth of a network. IP = cameras got popular with IT techs because they could slap one on their netw= ork and be up and running in minutes. They put in a POE injector or on a mo= re advanced switch just configure the port for POE and the don't even have = to run any wire if the site was wired to modern standards with redundant wi= re. Literally. Up and running in minutes. Since many IP cameras have onboar= d storage or the option for onboard storage and they never even bothered wi= th any worries... until they started getting 10-15-20 cameras on their netw= ork and they started streaming all of them to a station for a security guar= d, operations manager, etc. For one or two cameras that are acting as their= own DVR they put nearly no load on the network. Only when they are being c= hecked. The onboard storage can be good for a couple days to a month or mor= e depending on the capabilities of the camera, setup, and the storage capac= ity onboard. Storage affects price, and as rarely as customers check that a= single main recorder actually works, they will never individually check ev= ery single standalone camera for complete operation. The big advantage to s= ome of the IP cameras out there is the resolution allows them to do things = we have been telling customers is impossible for the last 15-20 years. A si= ngle 3 megapixel IP camera can cover all 4 lanes of 2 gas pump islands AND = allow them to expand an image and read a license plate. Ok, its not the sam= e as they do on NCIS where they take a blurry image of a city block and rec= ognize somebody from their poorly lit reflection in a car window, but it's = a lot better than we have become accustomed to over the years. An order of = magnitude better. Cameras with 2 megapixel resolution are common and 3 mega= pixel or greater with all the IR, weatherproof, vandal resistant, and other= features we have grown to use are available. Now back to NVRs. This last p= oint of paragraph two above alone is an argument for a centralized storage = system. "They will never individually check every single standalone camera = for complete operation." A good NVR has two NICs. One to go to the clients = existing network, and one to go to a separate network switch. Preferably wi= th built in POE. They do not have to run all new network cable. Anyplace th= ey have an available network cable they can just change the patch cable ove= r to the switch managed by the NVR. The cameras can still have onboard stor= age as backup set as FIFO on an SD card or other internal media, but the NV= R is the work horse of the system, and if properly setup puts very minimal = load on the customer network. Only when streaming video to a client work st= ation, sending alerts, or backing up data to another storage center. Even t= hen the load is equivalent to only one or two cameras per client connected.= In addition an NVR has the ability to manage load on a per camera basis. O= ne with more activity will refresh more often then one with little or no ac= tivity. This maximizes the use of data storage over cameras with internal s= torage. Bob

That's invaluable information. Thanks.=20

I love the technology but doing the reasearch that " I " need to satisfiy m= y need to know, takes a long time. I usually put it off ..... and put it of= f until something happens .... like losing a job because I didn't know enou= gh about it..... or something ..

I've printed a copy of your response and put it in my "IP Camera Research" = folder. Thanks.

Just remember that there is a lot of variety, and I am relatively new (just a couple years) to using IP cameras and NVRs as opposed to analog cameras with a DVR which I have been doing for more than a decade. Some of my stuff typed out off the cuff might not be exactly spot on. You always have to check the specs of each individual component, and then see if they live up to their brags.

On Monday, November 19, 2012 11:41:10 AM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: Just remember that there is a lot of variety, and I am relatively new (jus= t a couple years) to using IP cameras and NVRs as opposed to analog cameras= with a DVR which I have been doing for more than a decade. Some of my stuf= f typed out off the cuff might not be exactly spot on. You always have to c= heck the specs of each individual component, and then see if they live up t= o their brags.

You're that far ahead of me. I've put this off for some time now. But it's = time to start. I've got a couple of IP cameras that I bought off someone wh= o wasn't going to use them and I'll begin by experimenting with them and ev= entually get an NVR and find out about all this "licensing" crap .... which= potentially annoys the hell out of me. It seems nowdays that everyone want= s to be my "partner" holding their hand out trying to make money on the fac= t that I'm installing something that they want to control. Napco, DSC, Hone= ywell, Alarm.com, Control 4 .... the guy on the corner with the cup .... J= eeeez

Licensing is a one off charge from what I have seen. A typical NVR comes with X many licenses, and you can add more licenses to add more cameras upto the maximum data handling capability of the NVR. (Most cap at 32, but Pelco has one that goes upto 128) Some MFGs will include licenses (usually promotional only) with cameras if you buy them from them with the NVR. Its not usually convenient for me because often mixing and matching with different MFGs and models often allows me to fit exact point applications better. Its usually pretty restrictive too. Some of the more reputable MFGs do allow you to transfer licenses to a new unit.

Corby used to do that kind of thing with their access control systems. You would buy hardware from them, and they would tell you it would do everything you wanted, but they didn't volunteer that it required separate additional licenses for every feature you wanted to use. If you hadn't already been screwed once and know better you would find yourself in the field with an anxious customer looking over your shoulder wondering why you couldn't get their system up and running. Then you would have to buy the updates out of pocket because you had already quoted the job. Been there. Done that. I CAN recall the last time Corby did that to me. It was in 1999. LOL. In their defense. The system is still working with no maintenance or service except new batteries.

This might work, I have never tried it though.

(free and open-source)

Also, I don't see anything about per-camera licensing here:

(many products to choose from)