Is anyone aware of any Canadian provinces where long term monitoring contracts can be cancelled immediately by the client provided the contract is for service only, and does not cover paying down any equipment costs in the rate ?
I was talking to someone from Alberta yesterday who said this exists in at least one other province, and is being considered for introduction there in Alberta. As I understood it, this would prevent alarmco's from holding clients to a long term contract if they wished to cancel early provided the contract did not involve any equipment equity paydown. So I guess this would mean that those who ordered a "free system" would be held to the contract and forced to pay out the rest of the term, since there is equipment paydown involved. But someone else who did a takeover, where the client owned the system outright, the client wouldn't be forced to comply with the terms of a three year contract for example, and could cancel immediately (since this involved only service in a broad term). Presumably, after the free system was paid for, it might go monthly since there would be no reason to hit the client with another long term contract (or at least a knowledgeable client who knew the law could refuse to pay up if he decided to leave that alarmco for any reason, contract or no contract)
Frank, do you know of any such contract limitations existing currently in Canada? It sounds like some provincial government is trying to even things up a bit....
That's an excellent consumer protection law. We need that in the USA to protect homeowners from unscrupulous alarm companies. Remember the guy who said he called an alarm company to repair his local, unmonitored alarm? They came out and replaced the battery or some such thing, then had him sign the "repair bill." On the front it said that by signing he was agreeing to the terms and conditions on the back. On the reverse side, in airline ticket size type was a
3-year monitoring agreement. What a bunch of jerks.
True, in that specific situation you mention, such a law would have prevented that consumer from being defrauded. However, I think the intent of this consumer protection legislation is more to even things up in the market place for the consumer right across the board. It pays to remember that the vast majority of alarm companies are honest and don't engage in fraudulent activities such as you illustrate. However, even the vast majority of good companies engage in needlessly signing clients into long term contracts for all the equity building reasons we all know and love. To suggest that this is not a fair thing to do will always generate volumes of criticism as we have seen in the past, and this is understandable given that most companies look no further than their bottom line. But the government appearing to step in like this is simply saying to the market place that there IS a legitimate place for contracts when you are paying down equipment costs, but that legitimacy stops when you are holding the consumer to a long term contract for nothing more than specific monitoring services, with a guarantee of long term revenues for you, but with little or nothing of gain in it for the consumer.
One of the other benefits of such legislation is that it will force marginal companies to clean up their act since consumers can cancel anytime they want. Plus, I have no doubt it will drive prices downward quickly which is not good for the industry. However, the days of ridiculous $30 plus monitoring rates that don't involve equipment "write downs" will rapidly disappear......
It will be interesting to see if this catches on. For all I know so far, it is just talk since no one has come back and said that it actually exists here in Canada in any specific province.
Good point, Bob. They're trying to give consumers an even break and that is a good thing. It is unfortunate that too many alarm companies use contracts so one- sided and patently unfair that a law is needed to protect the public from alarm company abuse.
Don't get me wrong on this. I believe that many alarm companies are run by decent, honest people who try to make a living while givving their customers good service and proper protection. The problem is that there are way too many alarm dealers who cheat their customers, mislead them about their contracts, offer insufficient protection and charge ever-increasing fees. Such companies are the reason we need laws like that in the USA, too.
I like to believe that's true, Bob. Hopefully, the Jiminexes of the industry are in the minority. One tends to become somewhat jaded after reading the constant stream of alarm company horror stories posted here. You have to remember that satisfied customers rarely say anytrhing. Perhaps there's hope for the trade after alkl, eh?
Well, that's the point, isn't it? Unless alarm company owners see customers as *people* who need real
*security* instead of just sources of recurring monthly revenue, they will keep right on trying to squeeze every last nickel out of them with no thought at all for the clients' needs.
One of the reasons I respect your business model is that you've always promoted full protection -- physical and electronic. That takes more of a comitment because you necessarily spend more time per job doing things that make the customer secure but don't necessarily bring in extra RMR. One foul-mouthed lout we all know has often criticized you for that. This law was made for people like him.
Let the church say, "Amen." :^)
I'm not sure about that. As an online marketer, I mark my products up significantly less than most installing dealers. Doing so has brought a flood of customers my way, even during hard times. I've been examining sales patterns over the past five years and our business has actually done better as the rest of the market has slumped. All I can figure is that with a tighter economy more people are looking for ways to economize. For a growing segment of the alarm market that means DIY. Since almost no local or national alarm dealers offer support to Do-It-Yourselfers, people search online. With such large websites as ours (92,000 pages now), Google, Yahoo and the rest give us good placement. That means increased sales.
Any alarm company that is seeing enough of a drop in sales ought to carefully examine its pricing policy. If there's room to drop a few percent and still make a profit, go for it. Better to have 20% of something than
80% of nothing.
True, and it's about time.
We'll have to wait and see. I probably ought to email my state reps suggesting they put forth similar legislation here in Florida. Lord knows the current statute isn't doing much to protect the public from some of these characters. Heck, we've got one of the most dishonest, vile jerks in the trade actually sitting on the state electrical board. How disgusting!
A number of provinces have looked at enhancing consumer protection and the companies aggressively marketing the so-called "free systems" are but one of the reasons. If there are going to be any applicable exemptions regarding "equipment buy-down", I think that would amount to nothing more than a "smoke and mirror" show when the companies doing this kind of marketing "adjust" their strategy. It won't apply to lease contracts (and the majority of large commercial systems are leased) or "rental" agreements (like AlarmFarce). In the first instance, the "lease" term can be extended (if the client opts for "included maintenance"). In the second, the equipment remains the property of the company (Brinks, AlarmFarce, Sonitrol). As far as I'm concerned, the whole thing (consumer protection legislation) should be a Federal issue and we both know where that can lead if it's mismanaged or mishandled (do I have to remind you about "gun control"?).
"Heck, we've got one of the most dishonest, vile jerks in the trade actually sitting on the state electrical board. How disgusting!".
Why Mr. BAss...you're not on the state electrical board. That would be disgusting! But since you can't get a license in Florida, you can't get on the board.
Knock, Knock, Mr. BAss.....
Norm Mugford
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
most states have laws that govern contract law and part of that law is minimum type size. If type size in a contract is smaller than prescribed by law the contract is non binding. Sounds like mr bASS is making up stories again. tsk, tsk.
It would seem to me that a law of this nature would be rather unusual since it seems (as you describe it) that it is directed specifically at one industry only. It would depend upon how liberal the government agency who's considering the law ... is .... and how much opposition to it can be mustered by the offended industry. The other factor is, that if it isn't specific to only the alarm industry, then the possibility of it's passage is even less. You see, unlike you, most people in business are interested in their own success and continuation of their business and like to take advantage of the free enterprise system that a capitalistic society offers them. There are so many businesses that depend upon service contracts to run their businesses, I'm pretty sure the outcry would be unanimous. Just think about it ..... Fuel oil companies, lawn service, air conditioning, window washing, appliance repair, fleet maintenance, property maintenance ....the list is endless. Additionally, how can government limit anyone from signing a contract that they want to sign? And allowing them to do so .... just decree that, carte blanche, it can be canceled at a whim? Something like that would certainly be used as precedent and would completely destroy contract law. Me thinks you're wishful thinking. Or .... the liberal gun politicians up your way have taken up a new cause.
I don't really think what he said really took place but, we'll see if he can actually pull up a reference.
As I said in my earlier post, it just doesn't seem like a law would be passed against a specific industry. It seem to me that precedent being set, it would be used against and affect too many other industries.The outcry and opposition by politicians funded by trade organizations alone, would certainly put a stop to such a law.
Why and how is it that you describe equity building as needless?
Looking further than the bottom line is an important part of keeping a business running. If one ONLY looks at the bottom line, then it's likely that the business will ultimately fail ... or .... at the very least, not do as well as it could do by offering beyond the norm service. After all, it's the service aspect that small companies offer that sets them apart from the bigger companies ( who by the way and as you know are the biggest offenders in this area)
Do you imply that those companies who offer long term contracts only look at the bottom line? I think you apply your jaded thinking about term contracts to those companies and have convinced your self that anyone who offers long term contracts do NOT also practice going beyond the bottom line. Do you ever consider those companies who offer long term contracts and work hard to deserve their customers loyalty? The companies who go out of their way to anticipate problems, call their clients back in the middle of the night when problems occur? Call clients after false alarms are received? Go on service calls at night, on weekends on holidays? Offer lenient or no payments when times are bad? Lower payments or none at all to limited income seniors? Do all the things and possibly MORE than YOU claim to have an exclusive on .....yet also build equity in their business as you are not smart enough to do?
Do you mean that holding the price of monitoring for a long term is not something for the consumer to gain? Followed by good service and adherence to the agreement? Isn't that an advantage? It seems to work for me and 10s of thousand of other alarm companies who've been in business for decades. Which, as we all know, that if there were only long term contracts with no good service, that these companies would cease to exist.
So you're saying that it's better for alarm companies to eliminate their source of equity and reduce their income for the benefit of the consumer ..... Uh-huh Sure ...... that oughta go over big with everyone in this trade .....
ummm Why I bet you could sell that world wide, to the alarm industy ....I'm sure.
Actually .... Bob ..... you're having a dream .......
I ask a simply question whether or not anyone has heard about this here in Canada and you come back with your endless self serving arguments for the industry status quo, twisting words to suit yourself. I guess we should be thankful you chose to answer in an intelligent manner, rather than your usual manner of filling the newsgroup with hate mongering !
I have no interest in discussing anything with people like you. Nor do I care what you think. You're a dinosaur! Go away !
Ahhhh I see. So anyone who want's to build equity in his business in order to build a retirement fund is ummmm simply self serving? Oh ..... ok. I'll just trash all these contracts and sell the business for peanuts and go on welfare. Sure ....... that's a wise business decision. Yep ..... we know how wise you are because anyone who is smart enough to give free parts and service, forever with his alarm installations, has got to be smart enough to know that building equity for retirement is simply a waste of time. Oh and I don't want to forget that you're also of a mind that your company with month to month contracts is worth just as much as a company with term contracts. So why wouldn't anyone put stock in what you say over what is proved otherwise every time someone sells their business. Yep .... you sure got a lot of people looking to do what you do ...... yessireee!
And I guess you mean by me twisting words .... that you just can't justify what you say ....... or convince anyone else that the way you run your hobby company, is in any way competent.
I presume you mean my pesistant persuit of the worst hate monger Usenet has ever known eh? ..... your psudo-friend, Dead man Bass. Funny though, you don't seem to have those same things to say for anyone else who does the same thing or for him and all his nasty conduct...... only me, the one who also wont let you off the hook when ever you try to promote your stupid and idiotic ideas about how to run a viable profit making business. Must be just a coincidence ......HUH?
But anyway ... Yeah .... I know .... it's too bad everyone didn't work for 30 years for a mega company. And only by your shear will power to tow the line like a good little soldier for decades, finally got your pension and now has the means to be so magnanimous as to run a profit and equity free company. Totally unaware or considerate enough think that there are others who don't have your ability to sit behind a desk for decades, simply waiting for big business money, to fall upon them. Some people acutally have put a lifetime of effort into their own businesses and livelyhood and are looking to reap some reward from it ..... unlike you. You've probably read about it somewhere .... you know what I mean. Taking a risk, putting it all on the line. living with litttle or nothing to spare, working other jobs while trying to make a business grow from nothing while supporting a home and family. Working 60 ...80 hours a week for years ...... you know all that hard work crap that others do. Yeah I know ..... there's really no reason to expect that someone like that should want to justify all the work they've put into their business through the years and look back and say .... it was all worth it. Nah ...... why would anyone in their right mind expect anything so rewarding as being able to reap some reward from their hard work and live in some comfort in their retirement. Not you certainly .... but .... errrrr ....but wait a minute .... your already CAN do that ..... can't you? ...... Jeeeze then ..... why would you ....... hmmmmmm!
Wellllll ..... I'll take that to mean the same thing it's always meant. You have nothing that can refute what I say. That you can't grasp the fact that not building equity in a business is asinine and that offering free service and parts with your installations is self destructive and that if you had actually had to start your business from scratch, as most people do, to support you, that you never would have gotten it off the ground and that if you didn't have another source of income for your retirement years, you'd be doing things just like everyone else.
Being called a dinosaur is a compliment. That means I've been around a lot longer than most and have survived. If it weren't for your ill earned pension income, you'd die out long before you could ever be called one, or at the least would live in poverty, when you sold your worthless business.
And ME? Go Away?
Not on your life ..... not on your life.
Other wise, Bob you seem like a nice guy, but as long as you try to promote your idiotic theory ..... I'm going to be right there supporting the right way to run a business. Every time.
Like it or not. Responding or not. Discussing it or not. Get used to it.
I won't respond to your endless repetitive comments regarding how to run a business, since you seem to be incapable of understanding there are many ways to do so and make money. I've heard it all before. And, you are quite incorrect in your assumptions about my past activities, but you believe whatever you want....it's no skin off my nose.
No, it is YOU who is the real hatemonger and fills this newsgroup with your disgusting comments about RLB. I can understand how someone can become angry with another but I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could ever wish another dead over it. For whatever good qualities you might have, you completely negate them with your vile behaviour on this newsgroup. I don't understand how anyone could become so hateful towards another simply because of what they perceive are injustices done. RLB makes no secret why he is here, but he offers assistance and good posts. And who among us is correct 100% of the time. I don't remember one decent helpful post you have ever made; at least none that stand out. This is a virtual newsgroup filled with all the same kind of people that exist in real life - grow up and learn a little tolerance.
I'm quite certain that if you and I sat down over a beer in real life and discussed business, we would probably end up agreeing about more than we disagree about. But you always resort to taking the low road and end up dragging every discussion down into the mud. I've met many people like you over my 40 years in various businesses, and almost without exception, they all are negative, narrow thinking people that I generally wouldn't want to associate with. So you continue to display your ugliness and I'm sure that some will follow your lead, but I hope more reasonable and intelligent people won't. With your long time experience in the alarm business, you could offer a positive contribution to this newsgroup but for reasons known only to you, you choose not to. That is too bad...
That's all that's really worth saying here. Oh, one last thing...."your friend"....that's REALLY not ever likely....
Ok, I'll take that as a "no", you haven't heard anything specific. The source of this information was in a position to know about such things in Alberta, and it seems they are seriously looking at it. However, you are quite correct; those who are likely to be seen as an abuser under any new legislation would likely just adjust their approach to negate things. And since it does affect contract law, I hope they REALLY think this one through.
If they use as little common sense as they took vis a vis the long gun registry, we will all be in SERIOUS trouble...
Well Bob, the above comment is exactly what I will say back to you .... except that I WILL respond. You see, it's letting people like you get away with promoting asinine ideas that has to be nipped in the bud. And I consider my self a pretty good nipper. Especially when the ideas are as dumb and unacceptable as yours.
Hey boo boo, I'm only repeating what you've offered in this group about how you got to be where you are. How would I know that you worked for a big company and retired with lots a benefits? That being so .... it follows then that you don't have to depend upon running your business to aquire a retirement fund. YOU've already got one ..... Right? I didn't make that up ..... did I?
I mean, why/how else could someone come up with the idiotic idea that one should NOT build equity in their company and give away free parts and service forever? Who, in their right mind, would start out to run a business for years and years, with no possible return on investment ....when there is opportunity to have it? Who would give away parts and labor at no charge with out a return on investment? Who would actually plan to run a business, flying in the face of all common sense and proven operation of alarm companies, THROUGHOUT THE WORLD and say that it was better to give that all away to make their customers "happy".? Does one retire on the good feelings of their clients?
Lookit Bobby boy, this piece of shit Bass has been the cause of untold inhumanities for years. If you're to blind to see it ..... that's not my fault. If you'd like a tour down memory lane, I'll be happy to show you all of the mean and hateful things this hatemongering son of a bitch has done to people and laughed all the way. Causing people to lose their jobs, stealing published material from people, responsible for someones death, a felon for pulling a gun on someone, impersonating people to ruin their reputation, mailbombing newsgroups to hold them hostage because the people in it hate his guts for what he does to people. YOU'RE a gun owner Bob, WHEN's the last time YOU pulled a gun on someone? When's the last time you stabbed someone? When's the last time YOU used drugs or went to jail? And you think what *** I *** do ONLY to him .... is not acceptable? Yea ..... sure. As much as what I do is terrible in the eyes of some people, it is deserving by every standard of what justice is. He's a seriously demented and deranged individual that has learned to just barely exist in society. He's learned all the wormholes that a slug like him would need to find in order to remain unscathed in a society of moral people. I have absolutely no reservations whatsoever in wishing that someone of his character be gone from this world and state it. The only difference between me and the rest of the people who've witnessed and been the brunt of this piece of decayed flesh's conduct, is that I say what they think.
As always you have the option to not read it. Otherwise ..... you don't have any say of what goes on in this Newsgroup ...... And if you remember, that's a quote of your "beloved" friend and a "attitude" that HE has fostered here, and NOT anyone else.
You don't remember any helpful posts I've made? Hmmmm seems as if you've got a little "tolerence" and bias problem of your own to review. Take a look at the recent Microwave detector thread. How about the Andersen 400 window thread. Want to know how many people E-mailed me for the information on how to do it and the reception it got and the agreement that Bass would likely steal it? Me thinks you only see what you want to see Bob-o-boy
I gave him all the tolerance that anyone deserves and so have hundreds of others that he's eventually goaded into a pissing contest. That's his method and ultimately his goal. Anyone who doesn't agree with him becomes the brunt of his sarcasm and stinging ridicule. Self defense was created just for people like him.
I can't help it if that's where you reside. You see, I can talk with the kings or the peasants. But you have to talk to them in the language that they deserve to be spoken to. You'll note that I do that ..... quite well.
Ya know ..... I've noticed the same thing .... but I still think I'd like you anyway. Through the years, some of the "other subjects" that have come up ... we seem to agree.
Have you noticed how many people do and always have taken exception to what Dead ass does? Now that can't be a coincidence ..... can it? But then again, I guess you COULD say that all of them are not reasonalbe and intelligent people and what that miseralble bastard has done, is ok. But, unfortunately ..... you'd be in the minority. I mean .... if he can do all kinds of nasty and abborant things to people and you think that it's all ok because he's helpful to people .......... why do you criticize what I do. Could it simply be that I don't agree with your stupid business plan and tell you about it and THAT's what you REALLY don't like? HmmmmMMMM?
As I said, I just think that you've let yourself become biased about my contibutions here by the facts that you don't like that I don't agree with your idiocy and tell you about it rather that just let you sing on as the others in ASA do ............. and you don't like the fact that I put Dead ass right where he belongs ..... out of the way and out of touch with other human beings that have moral character by using tactics that you don't agree with.
By the way, my theory is, if you're going to beat someone, you can't use the same level of force they're using. Something greater is always required. Usenet makes that a little more difficult to implement, but the theory is saved by the fact that he's going to die soon ..... so ....... what the hell.
Yeah .... I know .............. Just thought I'd piss you off a little. I guess it worked Eh?
Where have I said anything that would lead to this conclusion? I think you've been spending too much time in Florida. :-)
Government's always "seriously thinking" of the next way they can fleece the taxpayer. It's not going to happen because any such legislation would have to "piggyback" on the existing consumer protection laws.
I can write anything I want in my contracts as long as certain legislated clauses are also present and what I'm writing isn't against the law or socially/morally unacceptable. "Reasonable terms and conditions of service" are good watch words.
Well I'm pretty optimistic considering it's a different government looking at the thing. The fact that they're also "Conservative" leads me to suspect that they won't be interfering directly with the revenue stream of legitimate alarm companies. After all, we all pay our taxes, business license fees, Workers Comp, etc.
On a side note, I respect your views in regard to the service you provide your customers. You see things a little differently from Jim (who obviously doesn't have a son standing in the wings eager to take over the business). Jim is ensuring his business has equity that he'll be able to bargain into a very comfortable retirement. I see nothing wrong with this. All of our contracts are three year terms as well and we haven't had a rate increase in the many years we've been in business. We've also never pursued a customer who's decided to opt out of our service. The legal means to do so is certainly there, but neither of us would ever exercise it. A contract is a set of terms and conditions that both parties (to the contract) agree to. I've never yet had to coerce a client into signing one and I always make sure to go over the wording with them before they do. There are benefits to a guaranteed term contract for both parties.
Ok, I'll take that as a "no", you haven't heard anything specific.
RHC: No Frank, not nearly enough. I shoot IPSC (extreme action pistol shooting...a sport on the fringes of political acceptability) and spend as much time getting all the permits to travel around as I do actually shooting. Lets see now...a PAL for restricted (two day course and 8 months waiting; an ATT to go to the gun club (only available through sponsorship by the gun club and a two month wait..good for one year only; then an ATT to each sporting match outside the province, plus one to the border and back; then I have to beg some gun hating petty bureaucrat at the Canadian Firearms Centre to pretty please let me travel from point A to point B with my handguns. It's all FUCKING BULLSHIT by a government that caters to an urban anti-gun population. Canada sucks big time ! When I go to Florida (with the Form 6 for import / export of my firearms), they leave me alone to engage in the legitimate shooting sports. They basically trust their population to own and use firearms properly. God forbid though you mess up; they throw the book at you. And that's more like the way it should be. No Frank...not nearly enough time in Florida....
RHC: As I said originally, the source of the information was legitimate; however, neither he nor I can know for sure. That's why I asked the question on the newsgroup; not to stir up Jiminex again...."))
RHC: I don't really give a damn if a client signs a 10 year contract. Most legitimate companies don't harrass their clients when they leave; they treat them just as you do. Whether my son is standing in the wings or not, I choose not to lock clients in long term. That is just the way I choose to do my business and it gets me a tremendous number of clients that I wouldn't likely get without giving them this flexibility. When they move as many have done this summer because of the hot real estate market, I thank them for their business and often get the alarm in their new place (pretty much always especially if it's a takeover). Plus 75% of the previous alarm accounts come back to me due to low prices and no long term commitment. I admit to some initial trepidation at the beginning, but I soon found this is not really an exposure if you also give good service and a good warranty and your prices are on the lower side of the spectrum. And due to my particular set of circumstances, I can still get 30 months if I do decide to sell. But that won't be happening.
RHC: I will if you will...with RLB I mean...... yeah, I didn't think so....too much water under the bridge :)))
That's your choice. You've modeled your business as a good alternative to "the Borg" mentality and I certainly can't imagine you changing your marketing strategy. RLB would call that "disingenuous".
We do a similar trade and the three year contract term has never been a stumbling block (except to one property manager who wound up taking another year of crappy service with another alarmco before they finally "caved in").
I've never been a believer of "the lowest price" mentality. We offer good service at a fair price. We are NOT the lowest.
Good for you. The problem with any sort of buyout is trying to ensure the purchaser gets a fair return for their investment (and thereby satisfy the terms of the purchase agreement). If they're big enough to be able to fund the purchase without involving a bank then you won't have a problem. When a "third party" investor is fronting the money though, he'll usually want to see "paper".
There's a whole lot more than "water" under that bridge (as well you know). As long as he continues to post the nonsense he does I'll continue to call him on it. It's all been said before.
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