Can an alarm with PGM outputs, and/or other outputs, be wired to an X10 sensor?

Hello, and thanks for reading. Can an alarm controller that has "2 PGM outputs [2.5A] and 1 alarm relay [5A]" and "1 supervised bell output and

1 supervised auxiliary output" be attached to a wireless X10 door/window sensor ( ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/ds10a-is.pdf ), so that when the alarm system goes off for any reason, an X10 signal is sent? Any advice on this? Thanks.
Reply to
anonymous
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The short answer is, "Yes." But, you wouldn't use a door/window sensor. You'd use something like an X10 Powerflash module. As to which output to use... I'll leave that to somebody else. ;-)

Eric

Reply to
E. Hill

What make (mfg) alarm control panel do you have? Many mfgs have X10 modules that will send signals upon an alarm condition. But, simply, you can use the set of alarm relay contacts to activate a power flash module that will send an X10 signal. If you want to use the PGM outputs, you'll have to use them to power a relay whose contacts will activate a power flash module.

One point of advice however. DO NOT use the X10 to provide any life or property safety detection or notification. It's not reliable nor dependable enough to be used for anything above turning on/off lights or something that isn't safety related.

Reply to
Jim

Thanks, Jim and Eric, for letting me know about the PowerFlash. The alarm controller that's coming is the Paradox 1738. The outputs and amp ratings that I mentioned I got off of a couple of websites.

As for using X10 as an alarm system, my basic rationale is this: for those who cannot afford more than a very minimal professionally installed system, the X10 package could be a useful supplement, and those who cannot spend more than $100 on any alarm at all would probably find that having an X10 alarm that works 90% of the time is still a lot better than nothing (as long as the powerline environment does not create a lot of false alarms).

In my case, the cheapest professional alarm that I can afford (this Paradox system) comes with 2 door sensors, 2 motion detectors, the controller and a keypad. That secures only half my house: the bedrooms get nothing; six openable windows get nothing. Then I read,

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. Every little upgrade for the professionally installed alarm costs a lot, so it seemed to me that I had to turn to a cheaper package, like what X10 offers, which in addition to complete sensor coverage creates a bigger alarm effect(flashing the lights, sounding more sirens), gives me a little computer control, phones me and my nearby family, e-mails me, activates a security multi-webcam program (BlueIris) which in turn starts sending time/date/watermarked photos to my website, etc. If once in while one of the sensors can't communicate with the controller because an electrical noise producing device was turned on, I can live with that. I may have to do a lot of technical reading and spend an extra $30 on a dryer-plug-in phase coupler and a noise blocker to get full house coverage and near-100% reliability; I can live with that. I think I'm doing the right thing here for my situation (here's hoping!).

Thanks again for your time. I'll have to start watching for sales on the PowerFlash.

Jim wrote:

Reply to
anonymous

read,

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. Every little upgrade for the professionally installed alarm costs a

Uhhhh, magnetic contacts and motion detectors that you'd add on to the baisic system don't cost that much more than any X!0 components.

I just don't understand these people. JEEEEEEEZE

They're willing to spend any amount money to save a few bucks spent on a tried and tested way of doing security. Like X10 ...... if it has anywhere near 60% reliability at times, I'd be surprised. And many times it has 0%. And the point is .....ya never know when it's going to work or not.

So you're going to have a security system that you'll have access to with a computer ..... that's going to do all kinds of fancy reporting to you, that may or may not get though to you ..... and it's going to be with a secuity system that may or may not work. Cool man! That's puting things in proper priority.

Wouldn't ya think that reliability is an important aspect of security?

NAHHHHH who would think that?

Jeeeeeeeeeze

Reply to
Jim

Oye. The few bucks you "may" save will be spent on false alarm fines.

| >>Hello, and thanks for reading. Can an alarm controller that has "2 PGM | >>outputs [2.5A] and 1 alarm relay [5A]" and "1 supervised bell output and | >>1 supervised auxiliary output" be attached to a wireless X10 door/window | >>sensor (ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/ds10a-is.pdf), so that when the | >>alarm system goes off for any reason, an X10 signal is sent? Any advice | >>on this? Thanks. | >

| >

| > What make (mfg) alarm control panel do you have? Many mfgs have X10 | > modules that will send signals upon an alarm condition. But, simply, | > you can use the set of alarm relay contacts to activate a power flash | > module that will send an X10 signal. If you want to use the PGM | > outputs, you'll have to use them to power a relay whose contacts will | > activate a power flash module. | >

| > One point of advice however. DO NOT use the X10 to provide any life or | > property safety detection or notification. It's not reliable nor | > dependable enough to be used for anything above turning on/off lights | > or something that isn't safety related. | >

Reply to
Crash Gordon

I don't know what the prices of these might be if I went with the alarms that were paid for by $20-$35 monthly fees on 3-year terms. The (all things considered) cheapest professionally installed and monitored system in my area that I found when I phoned around was a hardwired system about $350-$400 up front, and then $10/month for no-commitment monitoring. Parts and labor determined the initial cost. If I add sensors to six more windows from all over the house on four floors (split-level), then I'd have to pay the installer to hardwire the whole house (spanning four floors of a four-level split), which cannot be cheap; or if I upgraded to a wireless alarm system so as to avoid all this labor cost, then I'd have to pay an extra $100-$150 (I forget the exact prices) up-front just to have the more expensive wireless basic package, before adding in the price of the sensors. In this context, going with a hybrid of basic hardwired professional alarm plus X10 set-up add-on is much more economical.

You lost me here. I mentioned possibly getting a phase coupler or noise blocker down the road, to make all parts of the house wiring reliably usable for X10; these can frequently be gotten cheaply at Ebay. Most of the components are wireless, and I don't need to automate the lights throughout the whole house, so in my case I don't anticipate a need to spend lots more money on X10 for a while. If my TV makes electrical noise on the house wiring, I can unplug it when I'm not using it.

Reportedly, some never have any problems with it, and some, in order to get their whole house automated, have to go through every electrical thing in their house to find out what's causing electrical noise in their house wiring, and install a phase coupler or signal booster and noise blockers. Some houses are small enough for the wireless devices to have no problems with range, and other houses need a repeater or two to get full reliable coverage. The bottom line is said to be that with reading, patience and perseverence, even the toughest houses can be brought up to 95% reliability. These reports seem credible to me. If someone has a home wiring environment that causes issues with X10 technology, then until the troubleshooting is done, you're probably right with the suggested figure of 60%.

No need for this tone of voice, I think.

Take care. I recognize your best intentions and thank you for them. Thanks again too for pointing out the PowerFlash.

Reply to
anonymous

The X10 thing doesn't automatically phone the police; it phones four numbers of your choosing with a message that you set. Then you can listen into what's happening through the microphone in the console, and if you have a webcam or similar setup you can check the images on the web or in e-mail to see what's going on. If you see or hear an intruder, you can call the police.

Reply to
anonymous

Thats even worse.

In most states it's not permitted for a voice dialer to directly call the authorities.

We we are you have to have a permit for local AND monitored alarms, which means if your neighbor calls the police because he hears your siren go off (even if you happen to be testing the local siren) and the police are dispatched you're liable for false alarm assessment.

I wouldn't trust anything on X10.

So...lets say your voice dialer tries several times to reach the first three numbers and fails, then finally reaches you on the phone, then you run to your nearest internet connection, log-in view your webcam?...and what...call the police 20 minutes after the fact?

Reply to
Crash Gordon

I am assuming that this is a DIY... Why would you spend the money for an x-10 sensor when few a few more dollars you can purchase the wireless sensor designed for your system and get the reliability you should have? there are plenty of online outlets to purchase these from, and there is always E-bay.

Don't give yourself a false sense of security.

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Reply to
Tommy

The idea is that the user programs the machine to phone neighbours and nearby friends and family, not the authorities directly. The idea is that they can take a look from the street and phone the police if they see signs of trouble. If a door is hanging off the frame, or a window is smashed, or if they see someone unusal walking around inside they can phone the police.

Good to know. This would be frustrating to alarm owners, I think; I at least would not want to be held responsible for my neighbours' misjudgements.

Ok.

If no one is answering the phone for those four numbers, I suppose it will have to try for 20 minutes or more to get a message through. That is of course a real limitation of the system, the price to be paid for the advantage of not paying monthly fees to an alarm company. If one has both a monitored alarm and a voice dialer alarm, I guess one gets the best of both worlds. Then on the one hand, neighbors can see things that the remote alarm monitoring company cannot and thereby sometimes make a more informed judgement about whether to call the police; on the other hand, it is very nice to have a monitoring company taking immediate action on your behalf through the phone line and/or (in some cases) a speaker on the keypad.

If the user does not program his system to phone the police automatically, and the neighbors have some common sense (everyone has to test alarms sometimes, right?), then it seems to me that there should be no false alarm fines caused by this system.

Oops, I said that already. Well, thanks for writing.

Reply to
anonymous

Hi Tommy,

I think I answered this earlier. I can't purchase a wireless sensor for the hardwired alarm at all. I could spend lots of dollars to upgrade to a wireless alarm, and then spend a a few more dollars at Ebay on the extra sensors, or I could use an X10 system, which is a cheaper and more fully featured solution but which might involve some troubleshooting headaches.

I appreciate your time and best wishes. Thanks.

Tommy wrote:

Reply to
anonymous

Fully featured does not equal reliability. Your are talking about something that is supposed to protect your home and family. If you cannot afford to do it all at once, then buy the wireless interface board and a single sensor first and add more as you are able. Don't let an "anything beats nothing" outlook give you false security.

Reply to
Tommy

Look, You seem to be comparing a professionally installed system to a DIY X10 system. Why don't you compare a DIY wireless system to the potential cost of a unreliable X10 system? Then you'd see the difference in cost is miniscule compared to the lack of reliability in the X10 system.

The possibility that you're risking here is that you'll wind up paying just as much or more for an unreliable X10 system. Whereas, if you started out using legitimate alarm equipment, you'd not have to take that risk.

Yeah ..... sure. Every day, for the rest of your life, you're actually going to remember to pull the plug on all the devices that will cause noise that might cause your alarm system to fail. And I suppose your going to go to your neighbors house and pull the cord on his power saw or his compressor or what ever else he happens to be running when your alarm trips. Oh yeah, that's right, instead of putting some money into a real alarm system, your going to go to Ebay and purchase a second hand signal blocker that just might block that signal .... but you can never be sure.

So, I guess that since your the one who's come here to a group of porfessionals for advice and information and who are telling you that X10 is not the way to go ..... that you think that your estimation of what's technically credible and whats not .....is correct and ours is not. If

I install alarms and X10 for a living ..... for over 36 years. If I thought X10 was a viable technology ..... I and thousands of other professionals would be using it. It sucks! Its a toy! It's unreliable for use in security systems! Ya wanna turn on and off a light or an appliance, that life, death, the well being of your home and family don't depend on? ........ sure ..... go ahead. But the bottom line is ........ you're wasting your time, money and effort, and risking too much, if you use it for security. Ive seen it tried over and over again ..... it just never works. Within a year or so, you'll have discoverd that the perpetual failure, maintenence and tweeking of the X10 will get too tiresome and eventually the system will sytematically disintegrate, due to your inattention and frustration.

Sorry, but It's hard to look stupidity in the face and not be amazed.

Reply to
Jim

Hello Jim,

Apparently we still disagree about "the lack of reliability in the X10 system." I accept on your word that you have years of experience in the industry. I also accept that a friend of mine who has used X10, who had to do some troubleshooting of it, was quite pleased with it. I accept (reasonably, I think) the various accounts I've read online of people who had significant realiability problems, such as you mention, who sorted them all out, and were pleased to continue using it, some of whom also claim to be highly qualified.

On your other point above, my comparing X10 to other DIY systems, if I knew of other similarly inexpensive DIY systems that offered the same features as X10, including integration with both home automation and my computer webcam system, I would of course look very seriously into it. Tell me the name of the system, and I'll be happy to learn about it. Or if there is no other system with those features, let someone put it together. I would be happy, as I have made clear, to do without the issues of X10 systems. In my case, time for a change in approach is quickly running out, because I ordered an X10 system, it has arrived, and it will soon have to be time to install it; but if I suddenly learn that I can have the same functionality with a less problematic system for the same money, I can still return my stuff to X10.

The sarcasm and anger (especially your comment, "It's hard to look stupidity in the face and not be amazed") are unjustified; let the discussion remain civilized. As it happens, my family and I do not watch TV everyday. Nevertheless, if our TV does cause a problem (it may well not), I would eventually have to get a cheap noiseblocker plug-in.

My reading suggests that the odds of his causing significant interference to my X10 system are low. If he's on that power saw more than an hour every day, and if it causes a lot of noise on my wires, I guess I would have to get the main line noise blocker. Weighing the expected benefits of my hybrid hardwired alarm/X10/webcam security system against the risks and costs of X10 issues, it seems that the benefits win out.

I'm sure you would agree that one can never be sure that a burglar will not disable, or escape the hoped for effects of, any alarm system: jambing wireless signals, cutting the phone line, leaving the scene before police arrive, etc. Surely you do not think that X10 is the only security option in which "you can never be sure." Probably nothing inexpensive is without itsown serious limitations, so the best that one can do is weigh the pros and cons of the various systems, features and reliability, and do the best that one can within one's budget.

On the question of 60% reliability and "it just never works", it is not your word against mine, it is your word against the many individuals, some evidently quite knowledgeable in electrical systems, who have claimed to have effected and maintained 95% reliability in the course of years. You have both been well meaning; you have both got experience. The only "professional" difference that I can detect between your advice and theirs is that you have in the end turned a technical discussion of the pros and cons (and hows) of a system into a somewhat sour confrontation. This mode of persuasion cannot and should not persuade me. Peace now.

Professionals can normally afford higher end, more hassle-free solutions. Some of us who are not quite that lucky just have to do our best with what we've got. Obviously X10 is not for everyone, even in lower price brackets. It seems to be mainly for problem solvers who are willing to make small sacrifices in reliability in order to get some unique extra security features on a budget.

I'm sure that the products that you professionally endorse are better than X10 in all sorts of ways. Again, if your product can integrate with house lighting, can interface to a PC for complex control and to load up my multi-webcam program, or the equivilent, at a price like that of X10, then please tell me your product; I will seriously consider switching over to it.

Reply to
anonymous

In the farthest reaches of your imagination ....can you think of any reason why anyone here would not ever suggest anything to you? Can you fathom why no one else has joined in to help you?

All I can say is ..... the next time you've already made up your mind about what you're going to do about security, regardless of what anyone here says ...... come-on back and ask us another question.

Toodles.

Reply to
Jim

Your Paradox panel is good stuff from what I've heard why not use their wireless devices?

| > Don't give yourself a false sense of security. | >

| >

| >>Thanks, Jim and Eric, for letting me know about the PowerFlash. The alarm | >>controller that's coming is the Paradox 1738. The outputs and amp ratings | >>that I mentioned I got off of a couple of websites. | >>

| >>As for using X10 as an alarm system, my basic rationale is this: for those | >>who cannot afford more than a very minimal professionally installed | >>system, the X10 package could be a useful supplement, and those who cannot | >>spend more than $100 on any alarm at all would probably find that having | >>an X10 alarm that works 90% of the time is still a lot better than nothing | >>(as long as the powerline environment does not create a lot of false | >>alarms). | >>

| >>In my case, the cheapest professional alarm that I can afford (this | >>Paradox system) comes with 2 door sensors, 2 motion detectors, the | >>controller and a keypad. That secures only half my house: the bedrooms get | >>nothing; six openable windows get nothing. Then I read, | >>

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. | >>Every little upgrade for the professionally installed alarm costs a lot, | >>so it seemed to me that I had to turn to a cheaper package, like what X10 | >>offers, which in addition to complete sensor coverage creates a bigger | >>alarm effect(flashing the lights, sounding more sirens), gives me a little | >>computer control, phones me and my nearby family, e-mails me, activates a | >>security multi-webcam program (BlueIris) which in turn starts sending | >>time/date/watermarked photos to my website, etc. If once in while one of | >>the sensors can't communicate with the controller because an electrical | >>noise producing device was turned on, I can live with that. I may have to | >>do a lot of technical reading and spend an extra $30 on a dryer-plug-in | >>phase coupler and a noise blocker to get full house coverage and near-100% | >>reliability; I can live with that. I think I'm doing the right thing here | >>for my situation (here's hoping!). | >>

| >>Thanks again for your time. I'll have to start watching for sales on the | >>PowerFlash. | >>

| >>

| >>

| >>Jim wrote: | >>

| >>>On Feb 27, 3:42?pm, anonymous wrote: | >>>

| >>>

| >>>>Hello, and thanks for reading. Can an alarm controller that has "2 PGM | >>>>outputs [2.5A] and 1 alarm relay [5A]" and "1 supervised bell output and | >>>>1 supervised auxiliary output" be attached to a wireless X10 door/window | >>>>sensor (ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/ds10a-is.pdf), so that when the | >>>>alarm system goes off for any reason, an X10 signal is sent? Any advice | >>>>on this? Thanks. | >>>

| >>>

| >>>What make (mfg) alarm control panel do you have? Many mfgs have X10 | >>>modules that will send signals upon an alarm condition. But, simply, | >>>you can use the set of alarm relay contacts to activate a power flash | >>>module that will send an X10 signal. If you want to use the PGM | >>>outputs, you'll have to use them to power a relay whose contacts will | >>>activate a power flash module. | >>>

| >>>One point of advice however. DO NOT use the X10 to provide any life or | >>>property safety detection or notification. It's not reliable nor | >>>dependable enough to be used for anything above turning on/off lights | >>>or something that isn't safety related. | >>>

| >

| >

| >

Reply to
Crash Gordon

I have not use the X10 modules or its associated platform in the past as we have been made aware that it was ranked poorly in the security industry as being erratic and problematic. I've seen demo's at our local Distributors, even the demos worked poorly. I believe every product tries to address a niche market and the individual whom posted this threat is the market. Those in the know have made you aware of there thoughts. Sincerely wish you luck with your project. FYI look over the accessories for your existing panel

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Reply to
Pogo

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