Camera Mirror Setup

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Hello all,

I am curious if anyone has used a convex mirror that is focused on with  
a camera from a distance to see in the opposite direction??

I have a project that involves getting a view of a roof. The problem is  
that the roof is the only place for the camera to be mounted and getting  
the right view is a challenge. So I was wondering if a convex mirror  
were mounted on a light pole and zoom in on the convex mirror would  
provide the necessary view.

Now I know physically and technically it is possible. What I don't know  
are what are the challenges or unknown problems involved in setting this  
up.

The camera distance to the convex mirror will be about 60' and I will  
need at least a 60mm lens to zoom in on the mirror.

Anyone here ever done this and what are the difficulties experienced??

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Les

Re: Camera Mirror Setup
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Reversed image view for a starter. (but if you can get the camera to  
reverse the image  your in good)

vibration would be the next thing.. (the breeze around building can be  
unpredictable)

night vision with IR flares (that would be a different kind of problem)

I've seen it done inside, in long hallways, (but even then  it had a lot  
of short falls)

Best of luck..

These new HD cameras can do wonders, now-a-days, not like the vidicon  
tube one's I started with..


*Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*

On 11/25/2017 12:19 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
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    <p><font face="Arial">Reversed image view for a starter. (but if you
        can get the camera to reverse the image  your in good)</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">vibration would be the next thing.. (the
        breeze around building can be unpredictable)</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">night vision with IR flares (that would be a
        different kind of problem)</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">I've seen it done inside, in long hallways,
        (but even then  it had a lot of short falls)</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">Best of luck..</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">These new HD cameras can do wonders,
        now-a-days, not like the vidicon tube one's I started with..</font><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-signature"><br>
      <b>Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.</b>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/25/2017 12:19 PM, ABLE1 wrote:<br>
    </div>
      all,
      <br>
      <br>
      I am curious if anyone has used a convex mirror that is focused on
      with a camera from a distance to see in the opposite direction??
      <br>
      <br>
      I have a project that involves getting a view of a roof. The
      problem is that the roof is the only place for the camera to be
      mounted and getting the right view is a challenge. So I was
      wondering if a convex mirror were mounted on a light pole and zoom
      in on the convex mirror would provide the necessary view.
      <br>
      <br>
      Now I know physically and technically it is possible. What I don't
      know are what are the challenges or unknown problems involved in
      setting this up.
      <br>
      <br>
      The camera distance to the convex mirror will be about 60' and I
      will need at least a 60mm lens to zoom in on the mirror.
      <br>
      <br>
      Anyone here ever done this and what are the difficulties
      experienced??
      <br>
      <br>
      Thanks in advance for any insight.
      <br>
      <br>
      Les
      <br>
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Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On 11/25/2017 5:23 PM, RTS wrote:
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Reversed image view for a starter. (but if you can get the camera to  
reverse the image  your in good)

vibration would be the next thing.. (the breeze around building can be  
unpredictable)

night vision with IR flares (that would be a different kind of problem)

I've seen it done inside, in long hallways, (but even then  it had a lot  
of short falls)

Best of luck..

These new HD cameras can do wonders, now-a-days, not like the vidicon  
tube one's I started with..

Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.

..........................

Thanks for the input guys.  Even the funnies.....................

Actually the customers desire for the view of the roof is to ensure
or verify that the ice melt wiring that was installed is doing its job.

I kid you not!!!!  Big concerns that snow and I build up will happen
and it needs to be monitored by staff so that proper action can
be taken in a timely fashion.

It is seriously being discussed and requested and in order to
get a view from the roof I would need two cameras and special
mounting brackets to get a proper view.

Thanks for the tip the IR possible issue.  Night vision may not be an
issue since there are external lights.  I need to check on that.

I was thinking the stability may be an issue as well.  Although
only in high wind condition.

Thanks for the input and the smile.

Les

Re: Camera Mirror Setup
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Just a thought

a local clinic / hospital has just installed CCTV system and their  
outside roof mounted PTZ cameras are all mounted on extended pendent mounts.

each of the 4 corners has a pendent on a 10' pole the view is great.   
each one can see the roof, 2 sides of the building and all out in the  
parking lots.

being about 4-5 feet above the edging of the roof, the cameras can see  
each others..

I'd love to see them  but alas I didn't do the job..


*Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.

*

On 11/25/2017 7:43 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
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    <p><font face="Arial">Just a thought</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">a local clinic / hospital has just installed
        CCTV system and their outside roof mounted PTZ cameras are all
        mounted on extended pendent mounts.</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">each of the 4 corners has a pendent on a 10'
        pole the view is great.  each one can see the roof, 2 sides of
        the building and all out in the parking lots.</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">being about 4-5 feet above the edging of the
        roof, the cameras can see each others..</font></p>
    <p><font face="Arial">I'd love to see them  but alas I didn't do the
        job..</font><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-signature"><br>
      <b>Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.<br>
        <br>
      </b> <br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/25/2017 7:43 PM, ABLE1 wrote:<br>
    </div>
      11/25/2017 5:23 PM, RTS wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Reversed image view for a starter. (but if
        you can get the camera to reverse the image  your in good)
        <br>
        <br>
        vibration would be the next thing.. (the breeze around building
        can be unpredictable)
        <br>
        <br>
        night vision with IR flares (that would be a different kind of
        problem)
        <br>
        <br>
        I've seen it done inside, in long hallways, (but even then  it
        had a lot of short falls)
        <br>
        <br>
        Best of luck..
        <br>
        <br>
        These new HD cameras can do wonders, now-a-days, not like the
        vidicon tube one's I started with..
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        *Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*
        <br>
        <br>
        On 11/25/2017 12:19 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">Hello all,
          <br>
          <br>
          I am curious if anyone has used a convex mirror that is
          focused on with a camera from a distance to see in the
          opposite direction??
          <br>
          <br>
          I have a project that involves getting a view of a roof. The
          problem is that the roof is the only place for the camera to
          be mounted and getting the right view is a challenge. So I was
          wondering if a convex mirror were mounted on a light pole and
          zoom in on the convex mirror would provide the necessary view.
          <br>
          <br>
          Now I know physically and technically it is possible. What I
          don't know are what are the challenges or unknown problems
          involved in setting this up.
          <br>
          <br>
          The camera distance to the convex mirror will be about 60' and
          I will need at least a 60mm lens to zoom in on the mirror.
          <br>
          <br>
          Anyone here ever done this and what are the difficulties
          experienced??
          <br>
          <br>
          Thanks in advance for any insight.
          <br>
          <br>
          Les
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      Reversed image view for a starter. (but if you can get the camera
      to reverse the image  your in good)
      <br>
      <br>
      vibration would be the next thing.. (the breeze around building
      can be unpredictable)
      <br>
      <br>
      night vision with IR flares (that would be a different kind of
      problem)
      <br>
      <br>
      I've seen it done inside, in long hallways, (but even then  it had
      a lot of short falls)
      <br>
      <br>
      Best of luck..
      <br>
      <br>
      These new HD cameras can do wonders, now-a-days, not like the
      vidicon tube one's I started with..
      <br>
      <br>
      Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.
      <br>
      <br>
      ...........................
      <br>
      <br>
      Thanks for the input guys.  Even the funnies.....................
      <br>
      <br>
      Actually the customers desire for the view of the roof is to
      ensure
      <br>
      or verify that the ice melt wiring that was installed is doing its
      job.
      <br>
      <br>
      I kid you not!!!!  Big concerns that snow and I build up will
      happen
      <br>
      and it needs to be monitored by staff so that proper action can
      <br>
      be taken in a timely fashion.
      <br>
      <br>
      It is seriously being discussed and requested and in order to
      <br>
      get a view from the roof I would need two cameras and special
      <br>
      mounting brackets to get a proper view.
      <br>
      <br>
      Thanks for the tip the IR possible issue.  Night vision may not be
      an
      <br>
      issue since there are external lights.  I need to check on that.
      <br>
      <br>
      I was thinking the stability may be an issue as well.  Although
      <br>
      only in high wind condition.
      <br>
      <br>
      Thanks for the input and the smile.
      <br>
      <br>
      Les
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:19:36 PM UTC-5, ABLE1 wrote:
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Hi Les,

I haven't tried anything like that but ...... things that come to mind are:

reflected IR light from the camera ( or you could use another source of IR  
strategically placed)   and just regular direct or reflected sunlight, stre
et lights, headlights and certainly ( as mentioned) at that distance vibrat
ion of any type would be magnified ..... a lot. You are also going to have  
to have a sizeable or "not so domed" mirror to diminish the "fisheye" effec
t successfully ..... if ...... at all. I don't know if those mirrors come i
n varying size domes.  

Sounds like a great experiment but can you afford it if it fails?  

Maybe you could submit it to "MythBusters" for a trial run.  

A kennel of Dobermans set up on the roof might be a surer option.

Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 6:09:05 PM UTC-5, Jim Davis wrote:
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R strategically placed)   and just regular direct or reflected sunlight, st
reet lights, headlights and certainly ( as mentioned) at that distance vibr
ation of any type would be magnified ..... a lot. You are also going to hav
e to have a sizeable or "not so domed" mirror to diminish the "fisheye" eff
ect successfully ..... if ...... at all. I don't know if those mirrors come
 in varying size domes.  
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You could collect RMR on doggie clean up and feeding ?

Re: Camera Mirror Setup
Hi Les,

I like this one challenge of yours. I am intrigued and curious about the la
y of the roof; flat, hip roof, or gable, size, etc. There are a lot of pitf
alls as others have correctly pointed out. But, there is always a way to ge
t things done!

Snow/ice on the roof that did not melt, would also probably mean that the c
onvex mirror would have snow/ice on it also, unless it was heated. Your cam
era would need to be in a well-heated enclosure also, as I am sure that you
 are aware of. It also depends how far up north you are. A convex mirror in
 serious minus-degrees Fahrenheit may not fare well either. It would be nic
e to have a sketch somehow of the lay of the roof with pitch indicated. I d
o have a bit of experience in the construction field also from a former lif
e ago.

Other alternatives: Is there not a way to install temperature sensors at di
fferent places to secondarily monitor the roof this way. These could be tie
d to an alarm zone(s). Depending on the construction of the roof, some can  
even be installed on the reverse side to monitor roof temperature.

If you can share the address without compromising anything, I would be will
ing to check some views from above for you. A picture is worth a thousand w
ords.

You also could possibly use a 360deg camera, or (2) 180deg cameras, simply  
elevated above the roof, pointing downward on a very sturdy tripod-reinforc
ed pole, in the middle of the roof. Would that not possibly work for the vi
ew of ice and snow accumulation? There are then no mirrors and not even sno
w to obstruct the view of the cam(s), as they are pointing downward. It all
 depends on your wiring access to the DVR.

Your convex mirror idea is possible, but it depends on the mirror(s) never  
getting dirty or iced or snowed out, nor out of alignment...it could be fin
ancially great if you want recurring service calls.  

...And here comes one of those Canadian geese happily floating down and he  
lands on that convex mirror and, startled by his distorted reflection, scre
ams out frantically his geese cackle as he accidentally relieves himself on
 that beautiful mirror!  



Re: Camera Mirror Setup
If you are concerned about snow build up monitoring you might want to consider strain gauge sensors on the roof structure.  Much cheaper and can be very accurate.




On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:19:36 PM UTC-5, ABLE1 wrote:
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Re: Camera Mirror Setup
Ok Guys here is a link to a dropbox folder I set up with a couple of  
pictures of the challenge.  I hope the link works, if not let me know
and I will attempt something different.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z8p4or5lu7p18p0/AADnQ0TR0GvKkgkzYTUJBIkPa?dl=0

As you can see I have marked up the important areas and estimated  
locations of the roof areas of concern, camera and mirror location.

And yes, a picture is worth a thousand words.

The approximate distance from the camera to the mirror would be 60 feet.

A mirror that I have found that would seem to work can be seen here.
According to the specs it has a 160 degree view.
https://tinyurl.com/ybjusn4k

I was thinking that if I could zoom into the mirror I could get a fairly  
good view of the roof areas.  The extra challenge is how much zoom is  
going to be required.

I am thinking at least 70x with a 3MP bullet camera.  That is a bit of a  
bite.  Unless I am missing something.

Oh and to help with the geography the site is located in
South Central Pennsylvania.  We don't get the snows as we did in the  
past but it does happen.  Two years ago we got a 24"++ at one shot.

I will be pulling these pictures off of dropbox after a couple of days.

Hope the links help.  Thanks for any input.

Les

Re: Camera Mirror Setup

a different approach to this problem..


problem areas..

It appears to me your biggest problem is going to be that roof top AC  
unit. and the distance from the camera is the problem..

I'm assuming from the photo that the roof is longer in the rear, and the  
angle looks pretty low given the height of the light pole out front..

and the wide angle mirror isn't going to help.

my guess is that it will appear as around 200 - 300' in the monitor..



On 11/26/2017 9:05 AM, ABLE1 wrote:
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Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On 11/26/2017 12:18 PM, RTS wrote:

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Rocky,

Really not sure of your concerns.  The concerns are that snow or ice  
will build up on the sloped roof primarily of the bump up.  Any snow or  
ice would have the potential of falling on patrons on the side walk or  
entrance area and being a potential liability problem.

There is no concern about the flat roof area.

Please look at the dropbox link again.  I have added another 1000 words
to the conversation.  Please review and give me your input.

Thanks,

Les

Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On Sunday, November 26, 2017 at 1:10:57 PM UTC-5, ABLE1 wrote:
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Hi Les,

Just thinking out of the box here a little,  but .....
Instead of cameras, how about a series (just a few) of PE beams around the  
perimeter, set close to the roof ( say 6 inches or less if possible.) Any b
lockage would set it off but alerts could be set up to occur only during/af
ter foul weather (with some kind of timer circuit, weather alert app or sch
eduling with central station or whatever)  so as not to be annoying during  
good weather by birds and such.

Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On 11/26/2017 3:02 PM, Jim Davis wrote:
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Hi Jim,

This is a small strip mall and I am already going to be installing about  
19 cameras around the unit.  It is the customers idea/desire to have a  
camera or two included to look at the roof.  And I can actually do it  
with cameras mounted on the roof parapet mounts that would extend out  
over the edge of the roof line.  They just need the number and it will  
be a go.  I was thinking out side the box as well by using a convex  
mirror.

There is no alarm system on site except for what the tenants may or may  
not have installed on their own.  I seriously doubt I could even try and  
sell them on a system just to monitor the roof.

Not that I know for certain but I am thinking that the owner may have  
been burned by previous accidents that could have been prevented if they  
could have know the status on site at the time.  Viewing the camera feed
on smart phones is the desired choice.

Thanks for the "OSB" thinking but.........................

Les


Re: Camera Mirror Setup
Hi Les,

Wow, I had envisioned a downtown, big city, Multi-story roof on an old buil
ding before I saw your pics. Glad you sent those.

I still think that the mirror idea might work, but would be problematic ove
r the long haul.

If the light pole is about 60' away from the camera position, then, the lig
ht pole is approximately 80' from the farthest-right angled roof end, and a
lso approximately 97' from the farthest-left angled roof end. Your light po
le is in a favorable position to view the whole view.

But, where I might wander off in, is that I would locate the 2 cameras in a
 different location, and this is assuming that I have some generous leeway  
in doing whatever I want to do.  

If I was the owner of that building/property, the cameras would be on top o
f the...light-pole lights! This is of course dependent on inspecting the wi
ring specs for the light pole lights. Even if they are 220v wired, you only
 need one leg of that 220v and the return or ground wire. You would also ha
ve to factor in how they are switching the lights as well. But, if I had ac
cessible un-switched 110v ac at the light-pole, I would be using it to powe
r a 5amp power supply for the 2 cameras. I could even get some low-profile  
cams in the color of the light-pole to almost make them hard to detect.

To get the signal back to the DVR: Either wifi that over thru the front gla
ss, if you care for that, or, you can successfully use deluxe gigabit power
-line adapters from the light-pole to the interior of the building. You do  
need to use the same leg of the 220-volt service at the building. This will
 transmit all the camera data as if you were actually using Cat5/6 wiring i
n a building.

It is outside the box, but if after a thorough evaluation of the building,  
I found that I could, I certainly would. It would be reliable, and have abs
olutely a clean view of everything, without any unknown negative factors.

Just lately, I used some premium power-line ethernet adapters where there w
as no option to route the internet to the dvr, and it is broadcasting the c
ustomer's cameras perfectly over the internet.

Now, how did you get such a great aerial view of that building, so fast?




Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On 11/26/2017 4:54 PM, E D wrote:
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Hi E D,

Exactly what I had planned until I found out that all of the light poles
are controlled by a photo cell and timer. Re-wiring would be a  
nightmare. So that idea was moved off the table and cameras on the
building is the next best choice.

For my own edification would you mind posting the mfg and model number
of the "deluxe gigabit power-line adapters"or "premium power-line
ethernet" adapters you mentioned above. I have another project and
that might be useful.

 > I still think that the mirror idea might work, but would be
 > problematic over the long haul.

Except for some unsteady views what other issues are you thinking??

 > If the light pole is about 60' away from the camera position, then,
 > the light pole is approximately 80' from the farthest-right angled
 > roof end, and also approximately 97' from the farthest-left angled
 > roof end. Your light pole is in a favorable position to view
 > the whole view.

Your estimated dimensions are about right.  I am just thinking that
if the camera zoomed into the view of the mirror to get a closer view
of the roof line.  Without doing it I am not sure how possible or
practical it would be to do that.

As for the picture, the customer had someone locally with a DJI drone
do a flyover and took a bunch of exterior pictures of the property.
I just did a screen print capture of the corner of the building
in discussion.  Each picture is about 8meg in size.  Lotsa zoom.

Thanks,

Les







Re: Camera Mirror Setup

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I have had good results using a charger and battery to power IP cameras,  
network switches and wireless bridges when the only power source has been  
timer or photo cell controlled lights.

I use a 12 volt 18AH battery charged from a NOCO Gen1 10Amp charger
For the wireless bridge I use Ubiquiti products.

My applications have been in self storage yards and apartment parking lots  
which means I can mount the required weatherproof boxes on the structures,  
if you could mount the weatherproof  boxes at the base of the pole or the  
base of the sign then you may be able to use a similar setup and mount the  
camera on the pole instead of using a mirror.

Doug  



Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On 11/26/2017 7:28 PM, doug wrote:
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Doug,
Now that is a idea that is a keeper.  I had been thinking about a solar
panel but that seemed cumbersome at best.  But, using the daily power to
the pole to do the charging is a very good thought.

My immediate question is how much charging time is needed to keep the
battery fully charged daily.  It would seem I need to create a new
spread sheet.......................

Thanks for that!!

Les

Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On 11/26/2017 7:54 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
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Oh and I use EnGenius products.

Re: Camera Mirror Setup
On 11/26/2017 7:28 PM, doug wrote:
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Ok Doug,

I did some thinking on this setup.

I am having a little challenge in that how are you powering
the equipment, especially the Ubiquiti WiFi device.

As like EnGenius most are PoE powered.

So which unit are you using??  Or are you powering
a PoE injector on 12vdc some how??

Of the top of my head it would seem you are using an
inverter to provide 120vac that converts to PoE at
48vdc for the equipment.
I know that makes no sense but..................

Please explain what you are using, like model numbers, etc.

I have a feeling that my problem is going to be the amount
of time the lights are actually powered.  I know they come
on with photo sensor, but something tells me they use a
clock to turn off at maybe 11pm.  That would mean that
I would only get about 6 hours of power, maybe, in the
winter.  Shorter in the summer.

Maybe that can be adjusted.

Please enlighten me.

Thanks,

Les


Re: Camera Mirror Setup
Hi Les,

The units that I used were TP-LINK AV2000 2-PORT gigabit pass-thru Powerlin
e starter kit. It uses the latest AV2 standard, allows 4k HD streaming. It  
does claim up to 2000Mbps Powerline speed, about $90 or so. MODEL # PA9020P
 KIT

You mentioned that the light poles are all controlled by a photo-cell and t
imer. Does that mean that each pole has its own photo-cell or are they usin
g one photo-cell for all the pole lights? Are the poles wired one to anothe
r, or are they each home-run to a building box?  

Sorry if I digress, but is anyone actually going to view this camera at nig
ht? I do not see how you could ever possibly get any quality picture out of
 this setup at night.  

In regards to your questions about other issues I may foresee, I think best
 to summarize it this way.

---The human eye can see up to 1000fps. The megapixel equivalent numbers be
low refer to the spatial detail in an image that would be required to show  
what the human eye could see when you view a scene. 90 degrees * 60 arc-min
utes/degree * 1/0.3 * 90 * 60 * 1/0.3 = 324,000,000 pixels (324 megapixel
s). 120 * 120 * 60 * 60 / (0.3 * 0.3) = 576 megapixels.

1. You are reducing the natural pixel view of the roof scene with a measure
ment of about 105' wide and with an angle of about 71 degrees down to an ar
ea of the convex rectangular mirror which is 20" x 30" with a viewing dista
nce of 35 ft.

2. You are then using camera optics from 60' away to see that 4.2 square fe
et of view on the convex mirror and are re-amplifying digitally for viewing
 to the dvr.

3. The mirror is not the quality that NASA uses, nor is it in the vacuum of
 space. Meaning- spatial distortion highly probable, air turbulence assured
.

It is kind of like a guy who is using 2 sets of binoculars taped end to end
, so that he first reduces the view and then re-enlarges it.  

I think that the concept will loose a greater amount of definition that is  
presently anticipated. But, since there is a 30-day money back return on th
at mirror, I would get it and do this in a controlled environment at home  
or shop, and see what I would get as a view on the dvr with the camera that
 you are envisioning to purchase. I definitely would not be trying this out
 onsite first.

If I was the owner, and I had been stuck paying for one or more liability c
laim/lawsuit, I would gladly pay to rewire that pole. The wiring is probabl
y in pipe anyway. So who designed this roof anyway? Must have been some Flo
rida contractor who relocated to your area.

I'd love to see how it turns out for you.

Have a great night/day.

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