Camera Mirror Setup

Reversed image view for a starter. (but if you can get the camera to reverse the image  your in good)

vibration would be the next thing.. (the breeze around building can be unpredictable)

night vision with IR flares (that would be a different kind of problem)

I've seen it done inside, in long hallways, (but even then  it had a lot of short falls)

Best of luck..

These new HD cameras can do wonders, now-a-days, not like the vidicon tube one's I started with..

*Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*

Hi Les,

I haven't tried anything like that but ...... things that come to mind are:

reflected IR light from the camera ( or you could use another source of IR strategically placed) and just regular direct or reflected sunlight, stre et lights, headlights and certainly ( as mentioned) at that distance vibrat ion of any type would be magnified ..... a lot. You are also going to have to have a sizeable or "not so domed" mirror to diminish the "fisheye" effec t successfully ..... if ...... at all. I don't know if those mirrors come i n varying size domes.

Sounds like a great experiment but can you afford it if it fails?

Maybe you could submit it to "MythBusters" for a trial run.

A kennel of Dobermans set up on the roof might be a surer option.

R strategically placed) and just regular direct or reflected sunlight, st reet lights, headlights and certainly ( as mentioned) at that distance vibr ation of any type would be magnified ..... a lot. You are also going to hav e to have a sizeable or "not so domed" mirror to diminish the "fisheye" eff ect successfully ..... if ...... at all. I don't know if those mirrors come in varying size domes.

You could collect RMR on doggie clean up and feeding ?

Reversed image view for a starter. (but if you can get the camera to reverse the image your in good)

vibration would be the next thing.. (the breeze around building can be unpredictable)

night vision with IR flares (that would be a different kind of problem)

I've seen it done inside, in long hallways, (but even then it had a lot of short falls)

Best of luck..

These new HD cameras can do wonders, now-a-days, not like the vidicon tube one's I started with..

Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.

..........................

Thanks for the input guys. Even the funnies.....................

Actually the customers desire for the view of the roof is to ensure or verify that the ice melt wiring that was installed is doing its job.

I kid you not!!!! Big concerns that snow and I build up will happen and it needs to be monitored by staff so that proper action can be taken in a timely fashion.

It is seriously being discussed and requested and in order to get a view from the roof I would need two cameras and special mounting brackets to get a proper view.

Thanks for the tip the IR possible issue. Night vision may not be an issue since there are external lights. I need to check on that.

I was thinking the stability may be an issue as well. Although only in high wind condition.

Thanks for the input and the smile.

Les

Just a thought

a local clinic / hospital has just installed CCTV system and their outside roof mounted PTZ cameras are all mounted on extended pendent mounts.

each of the 4 corners has a pendent on a 10' pole the view is great.  each one can see the roof, 2 sides of the building and all out in the parking lots.

being about 4-5 feet above the edging of the roof, the cameras can see each others..

I'd love to see them  but alas I didn't do the job..

*Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.

*

Hi Les,

I like this one challenge of yours. I am intrigued and curious about the la y of the roof; flat, hip roof, or gable, size, etc. There are a lot of pitf alls as others have correctly pointed out. But, there is always a way to ge t things done!

Snow/ice on the roof that did not melt, would also probably mean that the c onvex mirror would have snow/ice on it also, unless it was heated. Your cam era would need to be in a well-heated enclosure also, as I am sure that you are aware of. It also depends how far up north you are. A convex mirror in serious minus-degrees Fahrenheit may not fare well either. It would be nic e to have a sketch somehow of the lay of the roof with pitch indicated. I d o have a bit of experience in the construction field also from a former lif e ago.

Other alternatives: Is there not a way to install temperature sensors at di fferent places to secondarily monitor the roof this way. These could be tie d to an alarm zone(s). Depending on the construction of the roof, some can even be installed on the reverse side to monitor roof temperature.

If you can share the address without compromising anything, I would be will ing to check some views from above for you. A picture is worth a thousand w ords.

You also could possibly use a 360deg camera, or (2) 180deg cameras, simply elevated above the roof, pointing downward on a very sturdy tripod-reinforc ed pole, in the middle of the roof. Would that not possibly work for the vi ew of ice and snow accumulation? There are then no mirrors and not even sno w to obstruct the view of the cam(s), as they are pointing downward. It all depends on your wiring access to the DVR.

Your convex mirror idea is possible, but it depends on the mirror(s) never getting dirty or iced or snowed out, nor out of alignment...it could be fin ancially great if you want recurring service calls.

...And here comes one of those Canadian geese happily floating down and he lands on that convex mirror and, startled by his distorted reflection, scre ams out frantically his geese cackle as he accidentally relieves himself on that beautiful mirror!

If you are concerned about snow build up monitoring you might want to consider strain gauge sensors on the roof structure. Much cheaper and can be very accurate.

Ok Guys here is a link to a dropbox folder I set up with a couple of pictures of the challenge. I hope the link works, if not let me know and I will attempt something different.

As you can see I have marked up the important areas and estimated locations of the roof areas of concern, camera and mirror location.

And yes, a picture is worth a thousand words.

The approximate distance from the camera to the mirror would be 60 feet.

A mirror that I have found that would seem to work can be seen here. According to the specs it has a 160 degree view.

I was thinking that if I could zoom into the mirror I could get a fairly good view of the roof areas. The extra challenge is how much zoom is going to be required.

I am thinking at least 70x with a 3MP bullet camera. That is a bit of a bite. Unless I am missing something.

Oh and to help with the geography the site is located in South Central Pennsylvania. We don't get the snows as we did in the past but it does happen. Two years ago we got a 24"++ at one shot.

I will be pulling these pictures off of dropbox after a couple of days.

Hope the links help. Thanks for any input.

Les

a different approach to this problem..

problem areas..

It appears to me your biggest problem is going to be that roof top AC unit. and the distance from the camera is the problem..

I'm assuming from the photo that the roof is longer in the rear, and the angle looks pretty low given the height of the light pole out front..

and the wide angle mirror isn't going to help.

my guess is that it will appear as around 200 - 300' in the monitor..

Rocky,

Really not sure of your concerns. The concerns are that snow or ice will build up on the sloped roof primarily of the bump up. Any snow or ice would have the potential of falling on patrons on the side walk or entrance area and being a potential liability problem.

There is no concern about the flat roof area.

Please look at the dropbox link again. I have added another 1000 words to the conversation. Please review and give me your input.

Thanks,

Les

ggest

ur

Hi Les,

Just thinking out of the box here a little, but ..... Instead of cameras, how about a series (just a few) of PE beams around the perimeter, set close to the roof ( say 6 inches or less if possible.) Any b lockage would set it off but alerts could be set up to occur only during/af ter foul weather (with some kind of timer circuit, weather alert app or sch eduling with central station or whatever) so as not to be annoying during good weather by birds and such.

Hi Jim,

This is a small strip mall and I am already going to be installing about

19 cameras around the unit. It is the customers idea/desire to have a camera or two included to look at the roof. And I can actually do it with cameras mounted on the roof parapet mounts that would extend out over the edge of the roof line. They just need the number and it will be a go. I was thinking out side the box as well by using a convex mirror.

There is no alarm system on site except for what the tenants may or may not have installed on their own. I seriously doubt I could even try and sell them on a system just to monitor the roof.

Not that I know for certain but I am thinking that the owner may have been burned by previous accidents that could have been prevented if they could have know the status on site at the time. Viewing the camera feed on smart phones is the desired choice.

Thanks for the "OSB" thinking but.........................

Les

Hi Les,

Wow, I had envisioned a downtown, big city, Multi-story roof on an old buil ding before I saw your pics. Glad you sent those.

I still think that the mirror idea might work, but would be problematic ove r the long haul.

If the light pole is about 60' away from the camera position, then, the lig ht pole is approximately 80' from the farthest-right angled roof end, and a lso approximately 97' from the farthest-left angled roof end. Your light po le is in a favorable position to view the whole view.

But, where I might wander off in, is that I would locate the 2 cameras in a different location, and this is assuming that I have some generous leeway in doing whatever I want to do.

If I was the owner of that building/property, the cameras would be on top o f the...light-pole lights! This is of course dependent on inspecting the wi ring specs for the light pole lights. Even if they are 220v wired, you only need one leg of that 220v and the return or ground wire. You would also ha ve to factor in how they are switching the lights as well. But, if I had ac cessible un-switched 110v ac at the light-pole, I would be using it to powe r a 5amp power supply for the 2 cameras. I could even get some low-profile cams in the color of the light-pole to almost make them hard to detect.

To get the signal back to the DVR: Either wifi that over thru the front gla ss, if you care for that, or, you can successfully use deluxe gigabit power

-line adapters from the light-pole to the interior of the building. You do need to use the same leg of the 220-volt service at the building. This will transmit all the camera data as if you were actually using Cat5/6 wiring i n a building.

It is outside the box, but if after a thorough evaluation of the building, I found that I could, I certainly would. It would be reliable, and have abs olutely a clean view of everything, without any unknown negative factors.

Just lately, I used some premium power-line ethernet adapters where there w as no option to route the internet to the dvr, and it is broadcasting the c ustomer's cameras perfectly over the internet.

Now, how did you get such a great aerial view of that building, so fast?

Hi E D,

Exactly what I had planned until I found out that all of the light poles are controlled by a photo cell and timer. Re-wiring would be a nightmare. So that idea was moved off the table and cameras on the building is the next best choice.

For my own edification would you mind posting the mfg and model number of the "deluxe gigabit power-line adapters"or "premium power-line ethernet" adapters you mentioned above. I have another project and that might be useful.

Except for some unsteady views what other issues are you thinking??

Your estimated dimensions are about right. I am just thinking that if the camera zoomed into the view of the mirror to get a closer view of the roof line. Without doing it I am not sure how possible or practical it would be to do that.

As for the picture, the customer had someone locally with a DJI drone do a flyover and took a bunch of exterior pictures of the property. I just did a screen print capture of the corner of the building in discussion. Each picture is about 8meg in size. Lotsa zoom.

Thanks,

Les

I have had good results using a charger and battery to power IP cameras, network switches and wireless bridges when the only power source has been timer or photo cell controlled lights.

I use a 12 volt 18AH battery charged from a NOCO Gen1 10Amp charger For the wireless bridge I use Ubiquiti products.

My applications have been in self storage yards and apartment parking lots which means I can mount the required weatherproof boxes on the structures, if you could mount the weatherproof boxes at the base of the pole or the base of the sign then you may be able to use a similar setup and mount the camera on the pole instead of using a mirror.

Doug

Doug, Now that is a idea that is a keeper. I had been thinking about a solar panel but that seemed cumbersome at best. But, using the daily power to the pole to do the charging is a very good thought.

My immediate question is how much charging time is needed to keep the battery fully charged daily. It would seem I need to create a new spread sheet.......................

Thanks for that!!

Les

Oh and I use EnGenius products.

Hi Les,

The units that I used were TP-LINK AV2000 2-PORT gigabit pass-thru Powerlin e starter kit. It uses the latest AV2 standard, allows 4k HD streaming. It does claim up to 2000Mbps Powerline speed, about $90 or so. MODEL # PA9020P KIT

You mentioned that the light poles are all controlled by a photo-cell and t imer. Does that mean that each pole has its own photo-cell or are they usin g one photo-cell for all the pole lights? Are the poles wired one to anothe r, or are they each home-run to a building box?

Sorry if I digress, but is anyone actually going to view this camera at nig ht? I do not see how you could ever possibly get any quality picture out of this setup at night.

In regards to your questions about other issues I may foresee, I think best to summarize it this way.

---The human eye can see up to 1000fps. The megapixel equivalent numbers be low refer to the spatial detail in an image that would be required to show what the human eye could see when you view a scene. 90 degrees * 60 arc-min utes/degree * 1/0.3 * 90 * 60 * 1/0.3 = 324,000,000 pixels (324 megapixel s). 120 * 120 * 60 * 60 / (0.3 * 0.3) = 576 megapixels.

1. You are reducing the natural pixel view of the roof scene with a measure ment of about 105' wide and with an angle of about 71 degrees down to an ar ea of the convex rectangular mirror which is 20" x 30" with a viewing dista nce of 35 ft.

1. You are then using camera optics from 60' away to see that 4.2 square fe et of view on the convex mirror and are re-amplifying digitally for viewing to the dvr.

2. The mirror is not the quality that NASA uses, nor is it in the vacuum of space. Meaning- spatial distortion highly probable, air turbulence assured .

It is kind of like a guy who is using 2 sets of binoculars taped end to end , so that he first reduces the view and then re-enlarges it.

I think that the concept will loose a greater amount of definition that is presently anticipated. But, since there is a 30-day money back return on th at mirror, I would get it and do this in a controlled environment at home or shop, and see what I would get as a view on the dvr with the camera that you are envisioning to purchase. I definitely would not be trying this out onsite first.

If I was the owner, and I had been stuck paying for one or more liability c laim/lawsuit, I would gladly pay to rewire that pole. The wiring is probabl y in pipe anyway. So who designed this roof anyway? Must have been some Flo rida contractor who relocated to your area.

I'd love to see how it turns out for you.

Have a great night/day.

Ok Doug,

I did some thinking on this setup.

I am having a little challenge in that how are you powering the equipment, especially the Ubiquiti WiFi device.

As like EnGenius most are PoE powered.

So which unit are you using?? Or are you powering a PoE injector on 12vdc some how??

Of the top of my head it would seem you are using an inverter to provide 120vac that converts to PoE at

48vdc for the equipment. I know that makes no sense but..................

Please explain what you are using, like model numbers, etc.

I have a feeling that my problem is going to be the amount of time the lights are actually powered. I know they come on with photo sensor, but something tells me they use a clock to turn off at maybe 11pm. That would mean that I would only get about 6 hours of power, maybe, in the winter. Shorter in the summer.

Maybe that can be adjusted.

Please enlighten me.

Thanks,

Les