another APX oops moment

On Sep 8, 2:42=A0pm, mleuck wrote:

I think so too re. manuals). But in defense, I think that the manuals are in response to all the ...ummm programing challenged installers that can't fathom the intricacies of all the options. I think that where all of this controversy lies is in the fact that the Napco panels DO offer a myriad of programing options as compared to most other panels ..... and most installers aren't looking for that. For the most part I think that most installers would be happy with all the features of an Ademco 1000 panel but with 32 zones. They're looking to give the customers the least for the most. Or, saying it another way, They don't think that putting the extra effort into expalining all the additonal options to the customer is worth it, since the customer doesn't know enough about what the panels can do ... to expect any more than what the installer tells them it can do. I see that in some of the installers that I speak to here and I also see it in the programing of some of the panels that I take over. Me? I take the time to explain and give them choices and even then, I don't tell them everything that might be available to them for fear of confusing them. Obviously there I things that I program that I never tell them about, simply because they don't have to know. But being able to do some of the things that the Napco panels allow me to do is a great option to have in my back pocket. But, again, I can appreciate that there are fewer innovative installers out there then non-innovative, which, I would guess is also probably proportional to the length of time each of those two categories stays in business. If you're not just selling a commodity, making a system jump through hoops and making the client happy is prerequisite to being successful, at least to my way of thinking.

I don't know what the "Advent" compares to in the Napco line and I'd guess that on any panel you'd compare, my list of options provided to the client would be longer than yours. I could, if necessary, program everything up to and including a 1632 by hand for a basic no frills install and occasioally make changes via kepad when required. But you're right, there are so many options on the Napco panels that I can't remember them all, so for lots of changes the manuals are necessary. Any panel over the 1632 would be for a higher-end installation anyway, that I'd be offering some kind of special features/options to the client. But even then it only takes me, at the most, about 15/20 minutes to do those panels after setting up the laptop. Anyone who takes an hour or even a half hour on an average panel is either a novice or incompetent. Obviously, the panel you use most is the one that's the easiest to do .... by hand or laptop.

And ..... the other thing is ........... they're built like a rock with "bad out of the box" almost non existant over decades.

Except for that bad memory problem they had at one time in the P1632. Actually that wasn't out of the box. They took 1-2 years to manifest in most cases. If Napco hadn't handled it proactively with advance replacements I might have considered another brand, but they were awesome for me.

It's not so much the data transfer itself it's the long wait as the software apparently checks the status of the panel before and after the transfer.

Not really, I'd say a GE NX-8E compares in features to a 9600/255 and it comes with 1 manual. The multiple manuals on the Napco is because programming is quite a bit different depending on which keypad you are using which is part of the problem.

The problem with Napco is that those programming options are spread all over the place which requires the manuals. Almost everyone else has most of these options in easier to use menus. If they'd fix that it would be a vast improvement

The Advent is GE's top of the line system, roughly compares to the X255

I could, if necessary, program

It's not an issue of how many options are available it's how they are presented to the installer, when you have a decent programming interface you really don't need the manual for much of anything. Almost everyone else has moved to a more menu-oriented interface, Napco only uses that with the quick-start program section.

Which is surprising considering that their board design and circuitry layout is way behind the times and expensive to manufacture, likely one of the reasons they moved offshore before everyone else. Compare a P3200/9600 board to everyone else and you'll see what I'm talking about, all those resistors, caps and diodes cost money to hand solder and provide a potential point of breakage, everyone else has moved to much better integration.

Yeah, and that seems to take longer with the Windows software than it did with the DOS software too.

Nothing much works better as a power filter than a big old capacitor though.

Those big caps are about the only other component besides IC chips left on most boards, looking at a DSC board right now and everything's been reduced down to just a few major parts.

The problem is still back to education which unfortunately is a big problem. company's want to bill big bucks but not provide service.

I'm thinkin it all has to do with the money crunch and the "free" alarm companys that always seems to be the popular subject in this trade.

It's a self feeding monster spurred by the "free" systems marketing. There are companys out there trying to compete with the Nationals with their deep pockets and the only way they can do it is to give little or next to nothing with their installations. That includes low quality equipment, low quality installations, low quality installers, low quality service. I can only be grateful that I had my chance to build a company prior to all of this crap. A loyal following is something the newer companys can't get so they depend upon starting up with enough money to buy up smaller companys. Other wise after their customers had experienced their poor service, they'd never be able to keep ahead of their attrition rate. There seems to be some magic point in acquiring accounts that allows these kinds of companys to stay ahead of the errosion of their account base due to bad service.