ADT Contract Language help.

Go hire a lawyer. Perhaps an Alarm Contract expert- Maybe the Likes of Ken Kirshenbaum. Or maybe you just like to troll here for "Free" info from guys who make an honest living at it and CAN do some creative work by using their heads, unlike your "likely" future Company whom many of us wouldn't let wipe our cats litter box out, let alone do ANY work in our homes.

BTW- How come you always come here for answers?- Doesn't your "likely" Contractor make you feel absolutely comfortable with ITS answers? If I had that many unanswered questions and were that uncomfortable and unsure, I would be going out looking for MORE quotes.

I'm sure you will answer by- "I'm just making sure" or "I'm comparing". There are tons of us who go out and quote jobs and specs to customers just like you, who DEMAND that we give you free quotes, drop the price, give me something for free, throw this in, give me a detailed diagram and quote, the other guy said....., - then we never here from you or you jerk us around for a month- only later do we find you use EVERY DETAIL of the design to let another Company "Give you a better price".

In case you don't know- many are here to make a living and support our families- we're not the "Governmemt Free Cheese Program"! I,for one am HAPPY to see you go with ADT- you both are a PERFECT fit! I wouldn't waste a minute with you for nickle-and-diming a $3300.00 job, when I can deal with professionals in Fire Installations and make 15 Times that!

To Quote Kenny Rodgers: "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to RUN"! Many here have the knowledge, experience, expertise, and common sense to read a good hand and have a fast pair of legs!

Let me just say sorry guys.

My experience with forums in the past is *end users* trading information. It seems that is forum is actually *installers* trading information, and specifically installers that dislike ADT.

I don't think I was unreasonable requesting information on how to get the best alarm system, contract, etc. from a group called "alt.security.alarms" no matter who it was from Brinks, ADT, or smaller independent. I am sure your reaction would have been different had I phrased all of this as if the company I was dealing with was not ADT. None of this is any different than how I have posted to a garden forum asking what the best self-propelled lawn mower is and how I can get the best deal on it including warranty service.

Again sorry, I just assumed the group here was folks like me trading information on their systems, instead I found a group of installers who don't work and don't like ADT so are willing to bash the poor guy who dares ask a question about their services.

I kindly step out, good day.

I'm not sure about the exact terminology- most of us who have ever had a monitoring contract had an attorney review and revise it. Get language that makes you comfortable, and it will likely make a judge in any potential small claims lawsuit comfortable as well.

Another thing to explore- ADT may still be using "proprietary" firmware for their communicator in their main panels, which are made-to-order for ADT. If this is the case, your system will never be able to communicate with any other Central Monitoring Station.

don't fret. there is some good info in 'here' you just have to wade through the 'noise' to get to the signal. Of course it takes some skill to effectively do that. Like papa said: No free lunch.

The Safewatch 3000 can be reprogrammed locally by anyone who knows the Ademco/Honeywell product line, it CANNOT be remotely programmed by anyone except ADT.

Having done scores takeovers of ADT systems; I've only run across a couple of ADT panels that were data-locked.

I've never seen an ADT contract where you actually own the alarm panel even after you have paid for the system, so read the fine print on the back.

I've never seen an ADT installation that included any equipment outside of their "approved" product line. That means they can't "punt" if they need something special for your system.

I also hate the way they stick the transmitter to the moving part of the door rather than on the stationary wall.

I hope you get what you want, but you may find the salesperson has only one goal in mind; getting you to sign the contract, and the installers have one goal in mind; getting the system put in and gettin outta there. Don't look for long-term relationships here...you'll probably never see the same installer or tech or salesperson again...ever. I get most of my ADT takeovers because the client has to wait sometimes weeks for service.

And...you best buy their maintence contract or you'll get a really big surprise on your first service call...out here it's 175.00 for them to show up +

Very well spoken point!

ADT's go to market strategy has capet bombed many small dealers into dust. The ones that have survived live nervously looking skyward at the ADT big bucks bombers' bombay doors always dropping more money on customer installation subsidization, thus ruining more future business for them. Some small dealers that are on the wrong end of ADT's marketing largess post here. You're not going to hear too many positive things from them about ADT in this NG but I'll try to give you some. ADT is the big boy of alarm companies. For large national customers they offer the advantage of a single point of contact for multiple sites. ADT is in many cases one of the least expensive systems to install (for the end user front end dollars wise). If you want to be a customer of a company where you are always a number and never a name, that is their forte as well. You sound proud of the choice of a SafeWatch Pro 3000. I suspect that is some ADT OEM DSC product. There is no way for you to know that is not at or anywhere near the top of the line. Don't get me wrong, DSC (part of TYCO-ADT before the breakup) is a mainstream product, but it is a Ford or Chevy, not Mercedes or Caddy. It is not anti DSC BS I am spouting. I have spent days on end with DSC factory (product not design) engineers on customer problems. DSC would like to be at the top end because the margins there are so much bigger. That is ironic because the guys at the top end would love to have the volume that DSC has at the bottom end. Anyway, once a (your) system has been turned over from the installation department for service ADT dispatches technicians sort of via the Internet. The technician that responds to your call is unlikely to know you, or your salesman (if he is still around) or your system and will be feeling time pressure from being managed to a fare-thee-well. He must average 4 calls a day and is rewarded for doing more. An ADT contract seems to be the company's weapon of choice for keeping customers. Some ADT product like older Focus systems were completely proprietary to lock in customers, but now it seems they have invested in lawyers instead. I know that sounds like hyperbole, but I am being as accurate as I can. For a better look into the belly of the beast find an ex ADT salesman. There are plenty around. Get him drunk, buy him dinner or whatever. The stories he would tell you about ADT would likely ruin your appetite, buzz or both. I am not being smug when I say we literally have a company policy to get every ADT vehicle we find broken down on the side of the road back in service. They are our best unpaid sales force. No kidding! I can't tell you how many times I have gone to a customer (I am mostly commercial now remeber) and only had to listen to their 45 minute diatribe on ADT to get the business (once the ADT contract expired that is). Since I look like Santa (in the off season) I guess I get their trust easily (oh yes and having a page full of happy customers for them to call as references helps too). No one here is going to generate a profit from your business that I can tell. If you have questions about a contract from ADT no one here (that I have heard anyway) is a memeber of the bar, especially me, so no help is possible. Personally if I were in any way uncomfortable with a contract I wouldn't sign it. ADT is not going to let you modify it so it is a take it or leave it kind of thing. ADT may not be around in its present form much longer. Sooner or later you have to make a profit and ADT has been giving more than getting. It has broken up and the dust has not settled on all of those changes just yet. Sorry some folk's posts here left a bad taste in your mouth. I have found the indutry as a whole works hard to try to take care of customers and their needs.

wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

Apology Accepted You were both correct to assume that there are "end users" here, but there are as well, actual installers. Many of us have had many years of experience with conniving consumers as well as conniving thiefs who reside here to bash legitimate, honest Dealers by scamming the DIY'ers. The whole pot is here! Guys who believe they are above the Law, guys who don't see the value of contracts, guys who think that engineers are qualified to install and design, trunk-slammers, one-nighters, holier-than-the-rest Association members, and the like. It is a crap-shoot and hard to wade thru the doodoo. Many of us disdain the "Mass Marketeers" impact on the industry, and some LOVE them for their ability to provide new takeovers every day from disgruntled subscribers. Question:Anyone ever see a "FREE" Fire System offered? You were not unreasonable in assuming to find the information, just unaware of what exists as "Legitimate Info" on this Forum. Its USENET! Its unmoderated. Enough said. No, my reaction would have not been any different if it was NOT ADT- you get what you pay for. Some members were just trying to point you to the many complaints and shortcomings of ADT thru their experiences. "a group of installers who don't work"- hey, maybe some guys here a profitable enough to not have to go out on their own, maybe some are retired, maybe some just have a few hours to kill amusing themselves here, maybe the customer canceled last minute like SOME of them do, maybe they're taking a break from doing free estimates for conniving customers, maybe they sell on the internet or e-bay and use the computer constantly. Not all dislike ADT, but their practices and reputation around others comes into question alot here. The feeling I got was that you were skeptical about not only the 3 other quotes, but ADT as well. As I said, why were you asking here if you were that unsure of ADT as well? Why didn't you ask them and get the answers from them- after all your seemed to be more than leaning towards them? Unwittingly the truth was revealed- it WAS all about the price- who was cheaper, who gave me the freebies and extras, who won't lock me into more than 3 year deal (BTW- I found it suspicious from the get go that you need master codes, etc- by admission you don't even intend to stay with ADT for more than 3 years!) Most of my customers don't ask about how long the contract is- nor do I force them to commit- It's my expertise and Professionalism as well as their trust that makes the difference- no need to force them. It sounds to me that you don't "TRUST" ADT's ability to provide what you require. Move on- for more than trust and the reasons that others have explained to you, you will not be happy with the outcome.

In all honesty my background was this... I had a town home for 5 years, protected by a very simple ADT system (3 doors, 1 motion, 1 smoke, 2 keypads) which of course was woefully inadequate. The install of that small system was done well and I never had any issues with ADT other than, yes they did increase monitoring a small amount over the years.

Because I tend to carefully research bigger investments and I knew I wanted a comprehensive alarm install for my new construction home the process began many months ago. I intended to prewire the home but the only option was a $2000 prewire option from the builder which would only prewire the doors and stick you with their alarm company which was a no-name brand with old equipment. I read the complaints about ADT (resellers posing as the corporate company, high monitoring costs, leased systems, poor installs etc.) Because of those complaints I resolved to purchase an alarm system from a well regarded independent.

This was problem #1. How do you find a good independent? In the Chicagoland area there were dozens and dozens. I posted that question long ago to various forums as well as getting some publications (similar to a local Consumer Reports) that gave various ratings to companies based on customer satisfaction, price etc. I picked the 3 highest rated independents and also planned on giving ADT & Brinks the right to come look at the house and give their suggestions on how to secure it. Brinks was *awful* via customer service on the phone alone, simply horrible so I ruled them out before I even had them come out. ADT was *excellent* on the phone and I made and appointment with them and the 3 independents. 1 of the independents sales folks in my home was condescending and clearly out to lowball my equipment (despite my insistences i was willing to pay for more equipment to create full permiter protection) because he knew that was the only way he could get close in price to others. I ruled that independent out. The other 2 independents and ADT's salesfolks were excellent and had very, very similar suggestions. 1 independent used Elk products the other used Ademco/Honeywell products identical to ADT's rebranded Ademco products.

When the bids came in from the 2 "good" independents and ADT the differences were shocking. $3300 from ADT (including my relocation discounts etc.) and $4300 and $4900 from the independents. This was more than I expected and more than frankly I could stomach despite having resolved to pay more for an independent. ADT in their price had several pieces of equipment I didn't want or need so for the same price they went back and added several more window contacts and a door contact to protect one room upstairs, my small daughter's room... so that increased the price margin even farther because that wasn't speced out in the independent's quotes. Mointoring for ADT was going to be $61 a month (bug/fire/CO2/water/cellbackup/serviceplan with batteries) and for the independents it would be $53 (mid priced independent) and $81 (high priced independent.)

I called ADT and stated I was impressed by their installation cost by concerned about several issues. First I stated I wanted to go with an independent since I would own the system and could move mointoring after the service period. Further I said I was concerned by the mointoring costs being higher than others and claims of inferior installation service. Managers and salesmen from ADT called me repeatedly and addressed all of these issues without pressure tactics.

1st... ADT agreed to sell me the system outright (the box on my contract says "System is a LEASE unless the Customer Owned System box is checked" and it is.)

2nd... ADT agreed to not put any master or installer codes in the Safewatch 3000 box (basically a Vista 20P from Ademco) to prevent other mointoring companies from using it after my 3 year contract term is up. I have a rider that states "ADT will NOT program a lockout code of any kind which would in any way prohbit the customer from changing service providers at the end of the initial service period. No installer lockout code etc. Customer owns system outright and completely."

3rd... ADT lowered monitoring to $53 to match the lowest monitoring cost. This again includes free battery changes and is marked as such in a rider for the life of the contract. They can raise fees after 1 year but I have the right to complain and either have them keep it at $53 or cancel my contract with no early penalties at which point I could take my wholy owned system and go elsewhere. This to me implies I can get them to keep it at $53 for at least the first 3 years as obviously they likely won't want to lose the buisness when they don't have the "we'll lock/takeback the system from you" to hold over your head.

4th... The sales folks again and again admitted that their are certain installers they have who could not do an adequate job on this task. They admitted only 3 or 4 ADT installers in the area were really qualified and so repeatedly told me to be patient as they would schedule the install directly with those folks (and perhaps a slightly longer wait for the actual install date) as opposed to the normal system where they call a central system to schedule the install and get random folks assigned. This to me inspired confidence that hopefully it won't be a total lick'em and stick'em job.

End numbers? $3400 for 5 doors, 20 windows, 3 upgraded keypads, a Ademco Vista 20P panel, extra power supply, 2 motions, celluar backup,

3 barrier bars, shock sensor, outside strobe, indoor sounder, 3 smokes, 1 heat sensor, 2 CO2, 1 flood, 2 free months mointoring, $53 monthly monitoring fee including service plan w/ battery replacement, fully customer owned system with no installer lockout and a 3 year contract with reasonable opt-out fixed fees for each year.

We'll see... perhaps I will be back here shortly with a horror story and you can all say "I told you so" but I appreciate all those who kindly answered my questions to ensure what I was hearing from ALL of these companies was no some line but rather a truthful and knowledgeable answer.

Thanks again for those who didn't attack me and perhaps I be one of the lucky ones who has a good local ADT Corporate office.

It's an Ademco Vista 20P actually.

Nope, I've taken over plenty of them.

Thanks guys. ADT had a bunch of dates available to me sooner but the rep actually called and recommended waiting until Nov 6&7 to schedule a full install on the 6th finishing if necessary of the 7th with a specific installer of theirs who did a house for Oprah's Angel Network on her tv show... basically saying "we know this guy doesn't screw it up." Again we'll see... but it sure seems they are trying to put their best foot forward. Every good company has its bad apples, but every weaker company also has its shining stars. We'll see...

Message-ID:

"the house is new construction but from a builder and pre-wiring was not an option sadly, clearly i would have done that."

$2000 to wire just the doors huh? Yeah right.

You are not a lawyer by chance, are ya?

of course "yeah right" it was highway robbery. the house is a semi-custom home built in a builder based community. you don't own the home until completion to builder can decide what if any option choices you have. while my wife and i spent huge sums on options, one option i wasn't going to take was wiring the doors (4) and 1 motion and 1 panel (all from a no-name company with old technology) for $2000. so therefore my ONLY real option was to wait until closing and THEN install an alarm, exactly what I am doing. I had the first salesman in my house about the alarm 3 days after the closing. my decision took 2 weeks total and the install is going to happen in less than 3 weeks for a total of 5 weeks after the close.

Somebody in this NG has the ADT personality disk, who is it AND when are you going to share it?

First, $2K for 4 doors is outright robbery. You should be able to get all the 22 windows, 4 doors, 3 keypads, a couple of motions, and the smokes & Co wiring for that price.

Second, If the builder wants to sell the house and you have a contract to buy you can invite your own contractors in to pre-wire. This goes for audio, video, security, and communications. The package he offered sounds like a sweetheart deal with a alarmco that is below board. You can always rip out the equipment they install during trim-out, but under no circumstances can the builder make you go with that company for monitoring and service.

Until you actually own the home, which happens after completion unless its a custom build, then you are at the mercy of the builder, you don't have the right to send your own contractors in to do a prewire anymore than you have the right to send someone in to install a custom stereo in the new car you are buying as it rolls down the assembly line. You can choose different options, but thats about it unless the builder, for reasons best known to himself decides to allow outside contractors on site.

Doug

I could certainly put it to good use. I have the hack for FA, but Axx's would be nice to have