looked at a 3 story trim out with finished basement. Not prewired for fire. owner wants fire monitoring. Could use relay with Kidde AC smokes?
I guess you can, but I would suggest a 10-20 seconds delayed fire loop response at the panel. AC smokes can trigger on voltage drops & spikes. You might also want to install a separate relay to signal trouble in case the smokes lose power altogether.
I myself would rather install wireless smokes & thermostats.
Jim Rojas
Kendog wrote:
I refuse those requests to wire to AC smokes like that.
Install a hybrid alarm system capable of doing wireless smokes...much safer than jury rigging AC smokes.
Check with the local AHJ. Ask if he minds if the smoke detectors connected to a fire alarm system are unsupervised.
You should really "check" what you're responding to. It's not a "fire alarm system".
I guess this all depends on where and how your AHJ views such things. I wouldn't try it if you're a licensed fire alarm company in a state with any enforcement provisions for residential fire.
That sounds like a safer bet to me.
Is the relay UL approved. If so, as a unit or as an assembly or both.
The only one I know of, that is a complete UL approved unit, is the Gentex 9120F 120 vac/9vdc Photoelectric smoke alarm with piezo. It has a pair of wires for an external alarm system.
Norm Mugford
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
Be careful. The Gentex 9000 series smoke alarms are NOT LISTED for use with an alarm control panel. The system, if these were connected, would not comply with applicable UL and NFPA standards. If the inspector finds it he may refuse to issue a CO until the components are replaced and correct wiring is installed.
I have one in front of me for review. and it is UL 217 listed in Category UTHA.
My only concern is that the wires would be in an electrical box, which would not be accessable by a Florida low voltage alarm licenseholder.
Where are you getting the info that it is not listed for use with an alarm panel? None of the paperwork I received addresses that issue.
Norm Mugford
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
not so much a matter of can it be done, rather should it be done. Personally, I'd never do it that way.
| >
| >
| > looks like 3 extra wires from the relay. maybe c, no, nc? better than | > nothing? good enough for insurance? Wadddaya think? Anyone done it? | > Pros/cons? TIA | | Is the relay UL approved. If so, as a unit or as an assembly or both. | | The only one I know of, that is a complete UL approved unit, is the | Gentex 9120F 120 vac/9vdc Photoelectric smoke alarm with piezo. | It has a pair of wires for an external alarm system. | | | Norm Mugford | | | I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you? |
Nothing prohibits an individual from wiring his AC smokes to his home's burglar alarm panel. There isn't an AHJ that would say "boo" about such an interconnection because there's nothing in either NEC or NFPA that prohibits this. Sure, it's not supervised on the power side, and it may wind up being a false alarm nightmare (some AC smokes go through a "self-test" cycle when AC is restored after a power failure). I'm certain the OP will opt to install properly supervised smoke detectors. After all, this isn't "rocket science".
UL 217 covers single and multiple station smoke alarms. It does not cover use with an alarm control panel. Compliance with UL 217 doesn't authorize use with a FACP.
That is irrelevent since any homeowner can work on his own alarm or electrical system. There are more serious issues to be considered.
The device you're recommending provides no means of verification. As the problem of false alarms continues to grow, more and more communities and states will require compliance with SIA CP-01.
I checked with Gentex and also read their data sheet and installation manual. I'm surprised you didn't do the same. I'm also surprised you weren't aware that UL 217 is not the applicable standard for smokes connected to a control panel.
AHJ's know little to nothing about the technical end of thangs...they just sorta almost maybe interpret the code...sorta maybe.
| > Be careful. The Gentex 9000 series smoke alarms | > are NOT LISTED for use with an alarm control panel. | > The system, if these were connected, would not | > comply with applicable UL and NFPA standards. | > If the inspector finds it he may refuse to issue a CO | > until the components are replaced and correct | > wiring is installed. | >
| | Nothing prohibits an individual from wiring his AC smokes to his home's | burglar alarm panel. There isn't an AHJ that would say "boo" about such | an interconnection because there's nothing in either NEC or NFPA that | prohibits this. Sure, it's not supervised on the power side, and it may | wind up being a false alarm nightmare (some AC smokes go through a | "self-test" cycle when AC is restored after a power failure). I'm | certain the OP will opt to install properly supervised smoke detectors. | After all, this isn't "rocket science".
burglar alarm panel
Maybe not an > >> The only one I know of, that is a complete UL
sorta almost maybe interpret the code...sorta maybe.
That is wishful thinking around here. The AHJ is a Level IV NICET. She can tell you things you don't want to hear. $$$$
message
Olson is totally wring about this. He doesn't live in the US, much less work here. He's not even an installer.
As to AHJ's, as I'm sure you know, they vary considerably. I've worked with some very knowledgeable inspectors and a few real dolts. Regardless, you want to do the job right and in accordance with code and good trade practices. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would not recommend connecting an unsupervised circuit to a fire alarm zone. Considering all the noise some of these folks here make about "liability" issues, it's amazing anyone would even suggest it, especially a state official who ought to know better.
"it's amazing anyone would even suggest it, especially a state official who ought to know better".
You lie Mr. BAss, you lie.
I did not recommend or suggest anything...... I wrote "The only one I know of" .
That is not a recommendation Mr. BAss.
I also wrote: "I have one in front of me for review".
Just more of you trying to bend the truth and start trouble. You just tell lies, lies and more lies Mr. BAss.
You are correct on one thing....I ought to know better; than to listen to your lies.
Norm Mugford
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
Even a licensed fire alarm company can do such an interconnection. Around my neck of the woods, engineers often want the fire alarm system to "monitor" some building functions (such as damper positions or fan status). Bass has on a number of occasions stated that you can't connect anything to a fire alarm system unless it's "listed" for the purpose. I have yet to see a "UL Listed damper switch", yet such interconnection is done all the time. At one particular school, the smoke alarms in the dormitories are "monitored" by the fire alarm system. They don't initiate an evacuation alarm but simply provide a visual indication of the room in which the smoke alarm has been activated. This allows staff to respond (most often it's because one of the students is smoking which is strictly against the "rooles"). The school is located in New York State (which is one of the most strictest jurisdictions in the US).
There is no code or statute that prohibits an end-user (homeowner) from interconnecting his AC smoke alarms to his burglar alarm panel. Bass and I frequently get into this argument and he loses all the time when I post the relevant code. He's an idiot. I'd suggest ignoring him, but he's way too entertaining.
You will notice that he doesn't respond to me directly. Care to guess why?
To a listed fire alarm panel, yes... This is a burglar alarm panel. Such "beasts" are normally not installed to the same standard as a fire alarm system. You keep quoting code issues that reference *fire alarm systems*. Where in the code does it state that connecting a smoke alarm to a burglar alarm panel makes it a fire alarm panel? Where, "Mr. Bass"??
And what about this code??
NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single or multiple-station alarm.
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