A puzzle to solve

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Hey guys, the other day I had a problem tracing a wire and I used a method  
I?ve used for years. It just occurred to me that I don?t kn
ow if it?s something that everybody knows or not.

This was the problem. I ran about a hundred fifty cat 6 wires for both netw
ork and telephone in a 5000 square foot office. The office was originally m
eant to be two individual office spaces and separated by a thick fire wall.
 A bunch of the network wires ran through the fire wall to the other side.  
There are ceiling tiles at about 16 feet. One of those wires was for the pu
rpose of carrying a signal to an 82 inch TV on the other side of the firewa
ll that was mounted about 10 feet off the floor. The wire was supposed to b
e running from a cable box in a utility closet on the other side of the fir
e wall via an HDMI extender.. In back of the wall with the TV are two small
 rooms. One a bathroom and one a storage closet both with only 8 foot ceili
ng tiles. In order to get to the back of the TV the ceiling grid needs to b
e disassembled and an extension ladder maneuvered into the small room and p
ut up to see over the wall to the back of the TV. Something I had planned t
o only have to do once when connecting the TV to the HDMI extender.

Well the owner decides that he doesn?t want the cable box in the ut
ility closet. He wants it moved to another closet in another office. Now, -
--- I have the TV wire in the utility closet labeled out of the hundred or  
so network wires but all the wires are bundled, and tied into a cable and m
ounted to the network rack and shelves.  That is, ---- the wires aren?
?t just loose and hanging going up through the ceiling from the closet be
low. Above the ceiling above the closet I can see that there are 20 or so w
ires coming through the fire wall from the direction of the TV. So above th
e ceiling, I can?t tell which wire in that bundle is the one from t
he TV .  

OK, so I take out my wire signal tracer and attach it to the wire end in th
e utility closet and discover that I?m not getting signal. I can on
ly surmise that when I pulled the wires over to the TV I stripped them all,
 twisted them together so I could reduced the size of the wires I had to pu
t through the hook in my snake. So now the bare wires are shorted behind th
e TV and I can?t get a signal from my wire tracer up in the ceiling
 above the utility closet so that I know which wire to pull back up from th
e closet to re-route to the other closet.  

And remember, I can't see where the wires are in the closet from above and  
I?m working alone on an extension ladder and I don?t have a
nyone to try and tug on the wire from below.  

I found the wire in less than 5 minutes.  

How would you do it?

Re: A puzzle to solve
On 2/9/2020 6:59 PM, Jim Davis wrote:
> Hey guys, the
 other day I had a problem tracing a wire and I used a
 method I?ve used for years. It just occurred to me
that I don?t know if it?s something that everybody
 knows or not.
>  
> This was the problem. I ran abou
t a hundred fifty cat 6 wires for both network and tel
ephone in a 5000 square foot office. The office was or
iginally meant to be two individual office spaces and
separated by a thick fire wall. A bunch of the network
 wires ran through the fire wall to the other side. Th
ere are ceiling tiles at about 16 feet. One of those w
ires was for the purpose of carrying a signal to an 82
 inch TV on the other side of the firewall that was mo
unted about 10 feet off the floor. The wire was suppos
ed to be running from a cable box in a utility closet
on the other side of the fire wall via an HDMI extende
r.. In back of the wall with the TV are two small room
s. One a bathroom and one a storage closet both with o
nly 8 foot ceiling tiles. In order to get to the back
of the TV the ceiling grid needs to be disassembled an
d an extension ladder maneuvered into the small room a
nd put up to see over the wall to the back of the TV.
Something I had planned to only have to do once when c
onnecting the TV to the HDMI extender.
>  
> Well the
 owner decides that he doesn?t want the cable box in
 the utility closet. He wants it moved to another clos
et in another office. Now, ---- I have the TV wire in
the utility closet labeled out of the hundred or so ne
twork wires but all the wires are bundled, and tied in
to a cable and mounted to the network rack and shelves
.  That is, ---- the wires aren?t just loose and han
ging going up through the ceiling from the closet belo
w. Above the ceiling above the closet I can see that t
here are 20 or so wires coming through the fire wall f
rom the direction of the TV. So above the ceiling, I c
an?t tell which wire in that bundle is the one from
the TV .
>  
> OK, so I take out my wire signal trace
r and attach it to the wire end in the utility closet
and discover that I?m not getting signal. I can only
 surmise that when I pulled the wires over to the TV I
 stripped them all, twisted them together so I could r
educed the size of the wires I had to put through the
hook in my snake. So now the bare wires are shorted be
hind the TV and I can?t get a signal from my wire tr
acer up in the ceiling above the utility closet so tha
t I know which wire to pull back up from the closet to
 re-route to the other closet.
>  
> And remember, I
can't see where the wires are in the closet from above
 and I?m working alone on an extension ladder and I
don?t have anyone to try and tug on the wire from be
low.
>  
> I found the wire in less than 5 minutes.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
> How would you do it?
>  
 
Well JIM!!!
 
You p
ose a interesting puzzle.
 
My first thought was to b
urn down the building and start over.
But, NO that wo
uld not be a good thing...................
 
So if yo
u were using good quality wire and you looked at the f
ootage
label on the wire and knew the length of the r
un, then doing a little
algebraic calculation should
give you the wire to find.
 
I could be wrong, but th
is is just a test, right??
 
Let me know how I scored
!!
 
Thanks,
 
Les
 


Re: A puzzle to solve
On 2/9/2020 6:49 PM, ABLE1 wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Quoted text here. Click to load it
not sure I follow the story completely
but I've found different lengths of bundled
wires in the past using their "ohm" readings.
high resistance = longer run
lower resistance = shorter run..
a good digital meter can be very handy..
;-)
--  

*Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*


Re: A puzzle to solve
On Monday, February 10, 2020 at 12:16:38 AM UTC-5, RTS wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Rocky

Let me know what you don't understand.



Re: A puzzle to solve
On 2/10/2020 12:38 AM, Jim Davis wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
not that i couldn't understand your puzzle.
it's just the older I get the harder it is to
follow along with lengthy story lines..  ;-)
after 40+ years these things all run together...

RTS

--  

*Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*


Re: A puzzle to solve
On Monday, February 10, 2020 at 9:21:21 AM UTC-5, RTS wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Oh come on you old fart!

Get up out of the rocking chair. I'm 81 and still dancing as fast as I can after 51 years.

Use it or lose it!


Re: A puzzle to solve
On 2/10/2020 10:39 AM, Jim Davis wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
LOL
if it wasn't for the "address card" around my neck
I wouldn't be home half the time..
(forbid I ever loose a finger, be hell making chance
at the store)
LOL
;-)

RTS
--  

*Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*


Re: A puzzle to solve
On Sunday, February 9, 2020 at 7:49:11 PM UTC-5, ABLE1 wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Les

Not a test exactly.

I'm just wondering if anybody else knows my little trick.

I'm going to hold off on the answer for a few day until I think that everyone has checked in on it.


Re: A puzzle to solve
On 2/10/2020 1:41 AM, Jim Davis wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

So Jim,

Your "trick" is different.  But, you did not say my trick won't work??
Meaning that yours will work on cheap no footage label on the sheath.

Looking forward to the solution.
Oh, wait!!
You ordered up the "Solution Manual" and it explained ALL!!  LOL

Have a good week!!

Les






Re: A puzzle to solve
On Monday, February 10, 2020 at 7:51:14 AM UTC-5, ABLE1 wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
eryone has checked in on it.
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Maybe in this installation I might have been able to choose one out of the  
20 wires going in the direction of the TV was the one I "Thought" it was bu
t I don't think I would have felt confident that I had the right one. And,  
I would have had to wait until I was doing the final hookup on the TV to fi
nd out.

Re: A puzzle to solve

On 2/9/2020 4:59 PM, Jim Davis wrote:
 > Hey guys, the other day I had a problem tracing a wire and I used a  
method I?ve used for years. It just occurred to me that I don?t know if  
it?s something that everybody knows or not.
 >
 > This was the problem. I ran about a hundred fifty cat 6 wires for  
both network and telephone in a 5000 square foot office. The office was  
originally meant to be two individual office spaces and separated by a  
thick fire wall. A bunch of the network wires ran through the fire wall  
to the other side. There are ceiling tiles at about 16 feet. One of  
those wires was for the purpose of carrying a signal to an 82 inch TV on  
the other side of the firewall that was mounted about 10 feet off the  
floor. The wire was supposed to be running from a cable box in a utility  
closet on the other side of the fire wall via an HDMI extender.. In back  
of the wall with the TV are two small rooms. One a bathroom and one a  
storage closet both with only 8 foot ceiling tiles. In order to get to  
the back of the TV the ceiling grid needs to be disassembled and an  
extension ladder maneuvered into the small room and put up to see over  
the wall to the back of the TV. Something I had planned to only have to  
do once when connecting the TV to the HDMI extender.
 >
 > Well the owner decides that he doesn?t want the cable box in the  
utility closet. He wants it moved to another closet in another office.  
Now, ---- I have the TV wire in the utility closet labeled out of the  
hundred or so network wires but all the wires are bundled, and tied into  
a cable and mounted to the network rack and shelves.  That is, ---- the  
wires aren?t just loose and hanging going up through the ceiling from  
the closet below. Above the ceiling above the closet I can see that  
there are 20 or so wires coming through the fire wall from the direction  
of the TV. So above the ceiling, I can?t tell which wire in that bundle  
is the one from the TV .
 >
 > OK, so I take out my wire signal tracer and attach it to the wire end  
in the utility closet and discover that I?m not getting signal. I can  
only surmise that when I pulled the wires over to the TV I stripped them  
all, twisted them together so I could reduced the size of the wires I  
had to put through the hook in my snake. So now the bare wires are  
shorted behind the TV and I can?t get a signal from my wire tracer up in  
the ceiling above the utility closet so that I know which wire to pull  
back up from the closet to re-route to the other closet.
 >
 > And remember, I can't see where the wires are in the closet from  
above and I?m working alone on an extension ladder and I don?t have  
anyone to try and tug on the wire from below.
 >
 > I found the wire in less than 5 minutes.
 >
 > How would you do it?
 >


Use your tone generator with one lead on that wire, and one lead on  
another wire, ceiling grid, or other parallel conductor.

Re: A puzzle to solve
On Monday, February 10, 2020 at 3:45:23 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yeaaaaayyyy!

Yep, that's what I did.  

I connected one lead of the tone generator to one of the wires in the shorted cable and the other lead of the tone generator to the common/ground pin of a AC wall outlet.

I figured that somebody should know how to do it.

Another thing I do to trace a wire is:

Sometimes you want to trace a wire behind a wall but the signal is too weak from your tone generator.  

I have and old Moose ( I think ) 30 watt siren driver board.  
Make sure there isn't a short on the wire. Attach the output of the siren driver to the wire you want to trace and you can follow the wire anywhere from one to two feet away from the probe.  

Sometimes it's so loud you can't tell exactly where the wire is. I have a rheostat on the output of the siren driver to cut down on the volume of the output.  

Doesn't always work out but often enough to make it worth a try.

I guess I could use a less powerful siren driver too.

Congrats Bob!

Re: A puzzle to solve
On 2/10/2020 9:17 PM, Jim Davis wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yes!! Congrats Bob!! You win!!

And yes, Jim that will work as well as the footage calculation. :-)

Actually I have used the tone generator that way as well, sometimes
not very successful.  Don't know why??

I also have a rigged siren driver hanging in the van for some of those
lost wire things.  As a matter of fact I got it out last weekend to help
trace a drain pipe in my basement. I was going to push a wire down the
pipe with a flex rod to determine which way the pipe ran under the
concrete floor.  Turns out some plumber had stuck about 8" of caulk
down the pipe to seal it off from sewer gas about 40 years ago.

Ended up cutting the pipe off about 10" from the floor and was able
to dig about 90% of it out.  What a PITA!!  Could then see down the
pipe to the 90 and see the direction it was going.  Didn't need the
siren driver rig, so it back in the van waiting for it's next job.

It seems to me that I built the rig after reading about the usage
possibilities either here on ASA or some other forum.  After reading
I think it was assembled the next day and officially used about
a week later.

Really can't say if it was a previous (years ago...) typing by you Jim!!

Either way, always good reading and input!!

Les


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