LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?

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hello,

i am interesting in purchasing a HD tv for the primary purpose of
wathing movies. currently movies on DVD (netflix, etc), but eventually
HD discs as well. dont really care about broadcast tv. 300 channels of
crap. :)

anyway, im testing out some models (right now i have a 42" Samsung
DLP). however the common thing i see in them is -- they cant make
"black". they can make "darker", but its never the true black im used
to from CRTs.

this is likely because when a crt's proton gun isnt sending  protons to
the glass tube, it remains off (true black). but in these new sets,
which are bulb-lit, they can evidently only attempt to mask the light
from certain pixel areas. this is imperfect and produces a luminscent
blue-black. i see this on computer LCDs as well, but their contrast
ratios are much less than the 3,000-8,000:1 ratios home theater LCD &
plasma.

anyway... can anyone help set my expectation -- can anything produce
actual or near-CRT blacks? or will i be disappointed w/ each technology
& brand, because none of them are as dark as a CRT?

also, im still looking at marketing material, but any idea what a
typical DLP contrast ratio is?


thanks!
matt


Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


oh, and replace "proton" w/ "photon" or whatever it is that makes these
things work... :)


matt


Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


Yes nothing is as black as a CRT.  Also, contrast ratios that are reported
are based on different methods so you cannot use them to compare one
manufacturers to another.
Got to see in person and lighting levels in stores are too bright.

Plasmas should be darker then LCDs.  I am not sure about DLPs.

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Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


 Rick wrote:
 > Yes nothing is as black as a CRT.  Also, contrast ratios that are
reported
 > are based on different methods so you cannot use them to compare one

 > manufacturers to another.
 > Got to see in person and lighting levels in stores are too bright.
 >
 > Plasmas should be darker then LCDs.  I am not sure about DLPs.
 >

When we got the DLP Christmas '03 I was very disappointed in the black
level performance. After going to work the next Monday and bemoaning
the blacks, I was all set to be unhappy - but in fact, I like it. When
Jay Leno came on with his almost black suit, I was unhappy - until I
noticed the shadows his arm was casting on his torso. I didn't THINK I
was crushing the blacks on the old set but...

The ambient light level will have a big impact on the perceived black
level. The black looks much better with some background lights on and
the same is true of a CRT. The apparent gamma changes with ambient as
well. Worst case viewing is a totally dark room.

SED will be neat if / when it shows up but I'm happy at present.

And you're right about contrast ratio numbers. If you can't duplicate a
measurement, it means essentially nothing.

GG


Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?



G-squared wrote:
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not following you. why were you disappointed on first viewing, but
then..not?

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good to know. i was in a dark room, as is customary when we watch
movies. i suppose i could try it w/ a light on. is this why philips
sells that rear "ambi-light" flat panel?

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...not sure about this. w/ my CRT i always watched movies in a darkened
room, and they were true black -- not electrons hitting the glass.
never noticed anything disappointing.


matt


Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?



matt@mailinator.com wrote:
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I have a 32-inch CRT, which despite being bulky was, when I bought it
14 months ago, the best combo of price and picture quality for me.
That being said, I can't watch it in a totally dark room.  I set up a
3-bulb pole lamp about a foot behind the plane of the screen and put 25
watt "party" bulbs in blue and green in it and set it so it's
projecting on the white wall behind, beside and above the TV.  Works
like a charm.  Reminds me of going to the movies as a kid, because all
our local theatres used colored side and screen lights that were dimmed
during the picture.  Much easier on the eyes.

-beaumon


Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


On 29 Aug 2006 08:10:11 -0700, matt@mailinator.com wrote:

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Non of them is perfect; With CRT/Plasma follows reflections in the
screen surface. With my old CRT it was enough to put something white
on the sofa table to have it show up mirrored in the glass, just from
the ligth from the screen. That problem is essentially removed with a
matt surface LCD-panel. (Be aware that also LCD differs in this
respect and some have a glossy surface.)

The LCD on the other hand requires some ambient light left on due to
limited black level. A certain light on the background is also
recomended from ergonomic reasons. The DVE disc recommends up to 20%
of the screen maximum brighness IIRC.
/Jan

Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?



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There is a good read on viewing conditions here:
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_viewing.htm

Bob



Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


 matt@mailinator.com wrote:
 > G-squared wrote:
 > > When we got the DLP Christmas '03 I was very disappointed in the
black
 > > level performance. After going to work the next Monday and
bemoaning
 > > the blacks, I was all set to be unhappy - but in fact, I like it.
When
 >
 > not following you. why were you disappointed on first viewing, but
 > then..not?
 >
Got the DLP on a Saturday, already had an operating ATSC receiver
waiting for it. Compared to the CRT set, the blacks aren't as 'black'
so it seemed bad. Kept telling myself it was bad on Sunday and you will
see what you want to see. Psyching myself down on Monday at work, I was
all set to be unhappy so I continued to be. After alll it's NOT a CRT
and the gamma IS different so is MUST be bad. But as I said, Jay Leno's
shadows had me re-evaluating my assumptions. It actually looks very
believable - which is the whole point.

 > > The ambient light level will have a big impact on the perceived
black
 >
 > good to know. i was in a dark room, as is customary when we watch
 > movies. i suppose i could try it w/ a light on. is this why philips
 > sells that rear "ambi-light" flat panel?

10-4 on that one. I definitely do not watch it without ambient light
but am quite happy, particularly with a good looking transfer, not some
weird coloring stuff life CSI and the general 'darkness' of Law and
Order. House, Bones, Grey's Anatomy and NCIS look good, especially on
the outdoors scenes.

 > > level. The black looks much better with some background lights on
and
 > > the same is true of a CRT.
 >
 > ...not sure about this. w/ my CRT i always watched movies in a
darkened
 > room, and they were true black -- not electrons hitting the glass.
 > never noticed anything disappointing.

What tends to happen in the dark is you pull the black level of the
monitor down to get your blacks but the very dark colors tend to get
squashed as well which raises  the apparent gamma. Having watched video
engineers run cameras when viewing in a dark room, they tend to stretch
the mid range (numerically lower the camma number from .50 to maybe .45
or lower). Watching that video in normal lighting appears overly
stretched level wise. This was more of a problem 20+ years ago when
videotape production replaced film. The film colorists have long been
in controlled rooms with carefully calibrated monitoring so they don't
make that error.

GG


Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


In 2008, SED is coming out from Toshiba.

SED technology works much like a traditional CRT except instead of one
large electron gun firing at all the screen phosphors that light up to
create the image you see, SED has thousands of tiny electron guns known as
"emitters" for each phosphor sub-pixel. This may bode well for video
purists who feel that CRTs offer the best picture quality, bar none. One
prototype has even attained a contrast ratio of 100,000:1.

Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


RobH wrote:
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Please remember that a 50:1 contrast ratio is all you need, if it is
linear. Take a look at some of Mitsubishi's best CRT projectors. That's
all they provided for a CR in a darkened room. The image quality was/is
spectacular.

Matthew

--
You can bet that a week after Daguerre took the first photograph,
vendors were selling feelthy pictures on the streets of Paris.

Thomas A. Horsley on alt.tv.tech.hdtv

Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


wow, that sounds awesome. thats what im into -- true blacks due to lack
of phospor lumination. looks awesome. too bad its not out yet....

fyi, ive also heard of "diamond dust" display technology, which would
also be actual lumination.


thanks,
matt


RobH wrote:
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Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?



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And it is all hype.  the ratios quoted are gray to gray, not balc to black,
which means for watching movies the contrast ratio is useless.

There are many issues for SED to be addressed before it will be ready to
compete with current technologies.

Putting any hope or faith in SED would be foolish for at least 2 years after
market wide production begins.

Bobby



Re: LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?


NoNoBadDog! wrote:
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Could you elaborate on your "gray to gray, not balc to black" remark?
Don't understand your reference.

Bob Miller

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