How NOT to hook up a pile of batteries!

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How NOT to hook up a pile of batteries! N9WOS 08-10-2008
Posted by N9WOS on August 10, 2008, 8:25 pm
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When I was looking up some information for a previous post, I ran across
this website and had to make a comment about it.

http://www.wagonmaker.com/newbatt.html

His temporary bank doesn't look to good.

http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/tempbatts.JPG

Not a fuse, or breaker in sight. I wonder what would happen if that inverter
went south.

His permanent installation doesn't look no better.

http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/bankview3.JPG

http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/bussbar2small.JPG

Look at how he has his new battery bank wired! He is proud of it!

How many failure points can you point out? How many ways can it turn into
the next slag pile?

Not a breaker or fuse in sight!!!!!!!!!

How many series banks are wired in parallel???? 12 I think???

The wires to the inverter snakes off through a PVC conduit for heck knows
how far!

The + and - wires are haphazardly ran over and across each other.

Where un-fused + and - wires come close (which is a lot of places), there is
no scratch or abrasion guards between the + and - wires of the various
parallel braches.

Ow, and look. He put a little board between the two buss bars. That'll make
everything better.

There is more insulation pinch hazard that carter has liver pills!

Each one of those battery strings probably has close to 1000 cranking
available on demand. Not talking about short circuit amps. Just the amps
required to pull a 12V battery down to 9V or so. Short circuit amps will be
way beyond 1000A per string.
If anything happens to those wires going to the inverter.. It don't mater if
they are 4/0, They will melt. They will go through metal and plastic like a
hot knife through butter.

The wiring on each individual string. If you get a pinch point between two
cables, or a cable and a terminal, or connector it will melt everything
down. Once one wire turns red, it will cut into the insulation of several
more, and they will short out. It will spread through the bank like wild
fire.

That isn't even talking about the chance of individual battery strings going
bad internally.

And his section on safety doesn't mention anything about and explosion proof
asbestoses overalls to protect you from the first stages of meltdown, to
give you enough time to run for your life

Not one mention of the word "fuse" or "breaker" in the entire safety
section. Only a mention of a "disconnect". Which considering that he had the
batteries directly connected to the inverter on his temporary setup.. I am
not going to assume that his "disconnect" is a breaker (or fused switch)

As a mater of fact, he don't even mention the word fuse one time on his
page. And he only mentions the word breaker one time (in relation to shuting
off the solar panel)

At a minimum, the cables should be segregated by polarity. And where ever
opposites cross, they should have fireproof abrasion guards. To keep them
isolated in case of accidents. (ie) If a cable gets overloaded and the
insulation melts off, it won't cut into a cable from the opposite polarity
and cause the situation to escalate.

Any load circuit cables coming off the main busses should be fused.

It would be best if the individual battery strings connecting to that buss
should were fused mid string, or at the end of each string to prevent a
catastrophic event if the worst case does happen. (shorting of the main buss
bars, or something connecting to the buss bars.)

That is a time bomb waiting to happen.


He even says that the maximum load would be 25A per string. You know how
easy it would be to put a 30A fuse mid string on each string. That would go
a long way into making it a lot safer. Plus abrasion guards, and isolating
the cable runs!!!!!!



Posted by on August 10, 2008, 10:32 pm
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> When I was looking up some information for a previous post, I ran across
> this website and had to make a comment about it.
>
> http://www.wagonmaker.com/newbatt.html
>
> His temporary bank doesn't look to good.
>
> http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/tempbatts.JPG
>
> Not a fuse, or breaker in sight. I wonder what would happen if that inverter
> went south.
>
> His permanent installation doesn't look no better.
>
> http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/bankview3.JPG
>
> http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/bussbar2small.JPG
>
> Look at how he has his new battery bank wired! He is proud of it!
>
> How many failure points can you point out? How many ways can it turn into
> the next slag pile?
>
> Not a breaker or fuse in sight!!!!!!!!!
>
> How many series banks are wired in parallel???? 12 I think???
>
> The wires to the inverter snakes off through a PVC conduit for heck knows
> how far!
>
> The + and - wires are haphazardly ran over and across each other.
>
> Where un-fused + and - wires come close (which is a lot of places), there is
> no scratch or abrasion guards between the + and - wires of the various
> parallel braches.
>
> Ow, and look. He put a little board between the two buss bars. That'll make
> everything better.
>
> There is more insulation pinch hazard that carter has liver pills!
>
> Each one of those battery strings probably has close to 1000 cranking
> available on demand. Not talking about short circuit amps. Just the amps
> required to pull a 12V battery down to 9V or so. Short circuit amps will be
> way beyond 1000A per string.
> If anything happens to those wires going to the inverter.. It don't mater if
> they are 4/0, They will melt. They will go through metal and plastic like a
> hot knife through butter.
>
> The wiring on each individual string. If you get a pinch point between two
> cables, or a cable and a terminal, or connector it will melt everything
> down. Once one wire turns red, it will cut into the insulation of several
> more, and they will short out. It will spread through the bank like wild
> fire.
>
> That isn't even talking about the chance of individual battery strings going
> bad internally.
>
> And his section on safety doesn't mention anything about and explosion proof
> asbestoses overalls to protect you from the first stages of meltdown, to
> give you enough time to run for your life
>
> Not one mention of the word "fuse" or "breaker" in the entire safety
> section. Only a mention of a "disconnect". Which considering that he had the
> batteries directly connected to the inverter on his temporary setup.. I am
> not going to assume that his "disconnect" is a breaker (or fused switch)
>
> As a mater of fact, he don't even mention the word fuse one time on his
> page. And he only mentions the word breaker one time (in relation to shuting
> off the solar panel)
>
> At a minimum, the cables should be segregated by polarity. And where ever
> opposites cross, they should have fireproof abrasion guards. To keep them
> isolated in case of accidents. (ie) If a cable gets overloaded and the
> insulation melts off, it won't cut into a cable from the opposite polarity
> and cause the situation to escalate.
>
> Any load circuit cables coming off the main busses should be fused.
>
> It would be best if the individual battery strings connecting to that buss
> should were fused mid string, or at the end of each string to prevent a
> catastrophic event if the worst case does happen. (shorting of the main buss
> bars, or something connecting to the buss bars.)
>
> That is a time bomb waiting to happen.
>
> He even says that the maximum load would be 25A per string. You know how
> easy it would be to put a 30A fuse mid string on each string. That would go
> a long way into making it a lot safer. Plus abrasion guards, and isolating
> the cable runs!!!!!!

And the laughs go on.

http://www.northernmichigansolar.com/photos.htm

Posted by Cydrome Leader on August 11, 2008, 12:47 am
Please log in for more thread options
> When I was looking up some information for a previous post, I ran across
> this website and had to make a comment about it.
>
> http://www.wagonmaker.com/newbatt.html
>
> His temporary bank doesn't look to good.
>
> http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/tempbatts.JPG
>
> Not a fuse, or breaker in sight. I wonder what would happen if that inverter
> went south.
>
> His permanent installation doesn't look no better.
>
> http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/bankview3.JPG
>
> http://www.wagonmaker.com/images/bussbar2small.JPG
>
> Look at how he has his new battery bank wired! He is proud of it!

I have a general question about all this home solar stuff.

Why do people bother with large sets of batteries and 12 volts?

I don't even see large 12 volt solar panels for sale.

Fat copper cables and crimps are costly, as are multiple high current
fuses/breakers/disconnects.

You don't need as many current protection devices with high voltage
battery chains. Giant battery lockers for large UPS systems might have one
per cabinet, if even.



Posted by N9WOS on August 11, 2008, 1:22 am
Please log in for more thread options
> I have a general question about all this home solar stuff.
>
> Why do people bother with large sets of batteries and 12 volts?
>
> I don't even see large 12 volt solar panels for sale.
>
> Fat copper cables and crimps are costly, as are multiple high current
> fuses/breakers/disconnects.
>
> You don't need as many current protection devices with high voltage
> battery chains. Giant battery lockers for large UPS systems might have one
> per cabinet, if even.
>
There is two reasons.

One. Most equipment is designed to run off of a 12V nominal (11 to 15V)
supply. Having a 12V bank allows you to run stuff without voltage
conversion. If you had a 24V or 48V bank then you would have to have a DC to
DC converter. They have those for diesel trucks and gulf carts, to supply
12V loads. DC converters work fine for small loads. But if you have a
sizable chunk of 12V loads, then a 12V nominal storage system becomes
attractive.

Two. Safety. When you get above 24V DC then you get into the voltage range
that can sustain a good sized arc under reasonable currents. If you get a
lose connection on a 48 volt system the equipment doesn't stop working, it
works with reduced power as the connection arc weld themselves into a slag
pile. Switches and disconnect become more cumbersome with increasing
voltage. That is because of the increasing difficulty with breaking the arc.

A 120V DC system is very dangerous in that regard. That is why during the
Edison days, they had those big clunky knife switches with the large opening
gaps, and big switches for turning on and off lights. If you used a modern
small light switch on 120V DC the light would stay on and the switch would
burst into flame from the arc inside.

On a 400V DC system, if you got an arc started, it would almost be
impossible to put it out.

As for as solar panels go. PPT PWM charge controllers can take a panel
voltage up to 100+V and use it to charge a 12V nominal system with high
efficiencies.You get reduced power loss in the panel wiring as a result of
the higher panel system voltage, and you get the benefit of be able to
supply loads at the native storage system voltage.



Posted by Cydrome Leader on August 11, 2008, 11:16 am
Please log in for more thread options
>> I have a general question about all this home solar stuff.
>>
>> Why do people bother with large sets of batteries and 12 volts?
>>
>> I don't even see large 12 volt solar panels for sale.
>>
>> Fat copper cables and crimps are costly, as are multiple high current
>> fuses/breakers/disconnects.
>>
>> You don't need as many current protection devices with high voltage
>> battery chains. Giant battery lockers for large UPS systems might have one
>> per cabinet, if even.
>>
> There is two reasons.
>
> One. Most equipment is designed to run off of a 12V nominal (11 to 15V)
> supply. Having a 12V bank allows you to run stuff without voltage
> conversion. If you had a 24V or 48V bank then you would have to have a DC to
> DC converter. They have those for diesel trucks and gulf carts, to supply
> 12V loads. DC converters work fine for small loads. But if you have a
> sizable chunk of 12V loads, then a 12V nominal storage system becomes
> attractive.
>
> Two. Safety. When you get above 24V DC then you get into the voltage range
> that can sustain a good sized arc under reasonable currents. If you get a
> lose connection on a 48 volt system the equipment doesn't stop working, it
> works with reduced power as the connection arc weld themselves into a slag
> pile. Switches and disconnect become more cumbersome with increasing
> voltage. That is because of the increasing difficulty with breaking the arc.

The makers of large UPSes don't seem to have this problem. Maybe people
should borrow some of the components they use. The same applies in the
telecom world. Every few decades a CO burns down, but existing protection
works fine at on -48 systems, and they use battery banks larger then off
the grid people can even dream of. 10,000A rectifiers (a large DC power
supply) aren't that unusual, and that's not even counting what's the
batteries could deliver.

More houses burn down from 120/240 service than COs.




> A 120V DC system is very dangerous in that regard. That is why during the
> Edison days, they had those big clunky knife switches with the large opening
> gaps, and big switches for turning on and off lights. If you used a modern
> small light switch on 120V DC the light would stay on and the switch would
> burst into flame from the arc inside.
>
> On a 400V DC system, if you got an arc started, it would almost be
> impossible to put it out.
>
> As for as solar panels go. PPT PWM charge controllers can take a panel
> voltage up to 100+V and use it to charge a 12V nominal system with high
> efficiencies.You get reduced power loss in the panel wiring as a result of
> the higher panel system voltage, and you get the benefit of be able to
> supply loads at the native storage system voltage.

It sounds likes lots of conversion and reconversion, in a system where you
want all the power you can get from something as inefficient as a solar
cell is to start with.

What are all these 12 volts loads? I really don't know.



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