POST hardware minimums
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Posted by Chris M on September 23, 2007, 2:30 pm
Please log in for more thread options parts missing are RAM and Hard Disks. I do not have any 184-pin RAM modules to test the basic functionality of any of these PCs. I wanted to check the POST for more info on the CPU installed. 2 MBs (D845DRGs) have a range of 200 to 266 RAM req's and a third (an 845GERG2) can also use 333s. The CPUs are at least 1.4 GHz, and could be as fast as 2.5GHz based on the range the MBs can use. The MBs each have 2 slots for RAM, and I would like to affirm that at least one of them is worth my time and money (albeit modest as the prices are). If these are all bad, then my money spent on RAM will be wasted, and that leaves me with the decision to spend the money on a 512MB module to occupy one of the 2 slots (so I can ultimately run a Gig) or if I should buy a $15 module that I would not use long-term since they only have 2 slots. I suppose I could buy the 128 mb to test them all and then by 1GB RAM modules, in spite of the higher cost of having it all on one module and even then, would it really matter if I had the 128 module installed when it also has a Gig module? I have been injured and out of work for nearly 5 years and literally every dollar matters. I am trying to replace 2 PCs I had purchased before my injury, to do a few home based income projects (PC based guitar lessons, running videos and multi-track recording). I have a broken 1.4 GHz notebook and a 1.2 GHz Athlon based mini-tower with 1GHz RAM but with a bad MB. So, even if the latest PCs have the lowest power CPU, I would have a replacement for these important PCs with the only expense being the RAM as opposed to buying a new MB for at least double or more the cost and it would also be more or less obsolete if anything else went bad with the MB. Do bottom line is that this article is being posted to find out what whether I can find any info while the POST is running until it find no RAM. I do not recall ever trying to partially boot a PC without RAM and I had expected at least a few lines of data about the CPU and BIOS before it stopped. If I find out that RAM missing will not allow the POST at all, then I am safe. If there is something else wrong, then I have to then decide how much it is worth trying to salvage at least one PC out of these 3. Can anyone advise me (via the group or email) what to expect when trying to boot an Intel MB (as indicated) without RAM? Thanks very much in advance. | |||||||||||||
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Posted by meerkat on September 23, 2007, 2:56 pm
Please log in for more thread options And you`ll just get `can`t find RAM` beeps from the speaker. ( if it`s connected, of course.) If you want to find out what RAM the board/s can take go to... www.crucial.com, and type in the motherboard details. That`ll get you started on suitable RAM. HTH. | |||||||||||||
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Posted by kony on September 23, 2007, 6:05 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:30:03 -0700, Chris M
>I found 3 Pentium 4 "Bare Bones" generic PCs with Intel MBs, the only
>parts missing are RAM and Hard Disks. I do not have any 184-pin RAM >modules to test the basic functionality of any of these PCs. I wanted >to check the POST for more info on the CPU installed. 2 MBs (D845DRGs) >have a range of 200 to 266 RAM req's and a third (an 845GERG2) can >also use 333s. The CPUs are at least 1.4 GHz, and could be as fast as >2.5GHz based on the range the MBs can use. The MBs each have 2 slots >for RAM, and I would like to affirm that at least one of them is worth >my time and money (albeit modest as the prices are). If these are all >bad, then my money spent on RAM will be wasted, and that leaves me >with the decision to spend the money on a 512MB module to occupy one >of the 2 slots (so I can ultimately run a Gig) or if I should buy a >$15 module that I would not use long-term since they only have 2 >slots. Buy the memory from someplace with a good return policy then you can return it, or resell it elsewhere. I would buy at least a 512MB module of PC3200 (400 as per your DDR term used) which is backwards compatible with the boards regardless that they may run it at the lower 200-333 DDR speed. >I suppose I could buy the 128 mb to test them all and then by
>1GB RAM modules, in spite of the higher cost of having it all on one >module and even then, would it really matter if I had the 128 module >installed when it also has a Gig module? If you want 1GB per system, buy 1, 1GB module. Having the 128MB also installed will obviously have only a minimal benefit in increased capacity. >
>I have been injured and out of work for nearly 5 years and literally >every dollar matters. I am trying to replace 2 PCs I had purchased >before my injury, to do a few home based income projects (PC based >guitar lessons, running videos and multi-track recording). I have a >broken 1.4 GHz notebook and a 1.2 GHz Athlon based mini-tower with >1GHz RAM but with a bad MB. What about the memory in this Athlon box, is it PC133? Just wondering as by the 1.2GHz era DDR was common. >So, even if the latest PCs have the lowest
>power CPU, I would have a replacement for these important PCs with the >only expense being the RAM as opposed to buying a new MB for at least >double or more the cost and it would also be more or less obsolete if >anything else went bad with the MB. > >Do bottom line is that this article is being posted to find out what >whether I can find any info while the POST is running until it find no >RAM. No, the motherboard EEPROM which stores the bios, is decompressed by the processor into main system memory (which is missing) and thus, the system cannot POST at all without memory, so it will instead fall back to beeping, signifying no memory present. >I do not recall ever trying to partially boot a PC without RAM
>and I had expected at least a few lines of data about the CPU and BIOS >before it stopped. If I find out that RAM missing will not allow the >POST at all, then I am safe. If there is something else wrong, then I >have to then decide how much it is worth trying to salvage at least >one PC out of these 3. You will definitely get nothing on the monitor without any memory in the system even if the boards are good. >
>Can anyone advise me (via the group or email) what to expect when >trying to boot an Intel MB (as indicated) without RAM? Another alternative is that you might put these boards, along with the minimum of processor, heatsink/fan, video card (if not onboard video), PSU... have the system ready to run except for having no memory, then take it to a mom-n-pop PC shop at which you had already arranged for them to put a memory module in to test it. If you worded your request right, they might do it in front of you while you wait, for free, though they might expect you to buy the memory from them which can cost a lot more than best prices online. The lazy answer is to just buy a 1GB PC3200 module from Newegg then if it doesn't work, return it accepting a 15% restocking fee. For example (assuming a US seller) with this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820161626 The loss of shipping cost, 15%, and return shipping (about $2 USPS) would only be $13.50 IF none of the boards work (but you should also try a new battery and clear CMOS while AC power is disconnected before giving up on them). | |||||||||||||
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Posted by Chris M on September 24, 2007, 3:25 am
Please log in for more thread options
> What about the memory in this Athlon box, is it PC133? Just
> wondering as by the 1.2GHz era DDR was common. Exactly. >
> No, the motherboard EEPROM which stores the bios, is > decompressed by the processor into main system memory (which > is missing) and thus, the system cannot POST at all without > memory, so it will instead fall back to beeping, signifying > no memory present. That sounds familiar, I may have been through this scenario once many years ago. At least the MBs are still possibly good. You know what I just realized is that these MBs are configured w/ video chipsets integrated and while I had thought it was possible that the POST would get a few lines displayed as it hands data to the video (Inever knew RAM was required so early), but with the integrated video that uses system RAM, there is obviously no video RAM either! Without loading a video board with its own memory, I don't know why I thought it would work at all, I was not thinking it through, or at least not factoring in the video config. I have never used a system w integrated video. With faster FSBs and RAM, I know this is not as much of a performance problem as it once was, but I have 2 AGP video cards, one is a Matrox Millenium G450 and the other is an Nvidia GeForce4 Ti 4400 based card w 128MB memory. It was a mid-priced card when I got it in late 2002. I have not even priced or even looked at video boards. I need to make sure I have expansion for an IEEE1394 Firewire board and possibly another NIC and a PCI soundcard. I am going to be using this PC for multi-track recording. The MB has the Intel AC97 chipset for sound, which again as best I can remember, uses CPU rather than a dedicated audio processor. I am going to double check to see if this is still the case, becasue installing one of the boards I have is no problem, just a planning issue. If this gets out of hand, I want to score a dual-core based system, or at least a dual CPU system since I have matching CPUs. What is the current situation with running 2 monitors? Do the video chipsets each have to have the correct diver with this support? I seem to remember hearing the Windows XP made multi-monitor support much more accessable, whatever that means. I did build a dual CPU system running Windows NT 4 once back in 1998 I think it was, back when Pentium 3s were the fastest available.WIth the cost of the MB it is probably cheaper to buy one of the MB/CPU combo deals with a dual-core CPU. I can't believe how cheap everything is. That is what I get for being out of the loop for these 5 years. >
> >I do not recall ever trying to partially boot a PC without RAM
> >and I had expected at least a few lines of data about the CPU and BIOS > >before it stopped. If I find out that RAM missing will not allow the > >POST at all, then I am safe. If there is something else wrong, then I > >have to then decide how much it is worth trying to salvage at least > >one PC out of these 3. >
> You will definitely get nothing on the monitor without any > memory in the system even if the boards are good. Yeah, that was stupid of me. > >Can anyone advise me (via the group or email) what to expect when
> >trying to boot an Intel MB (as indicated) without RAM? >
> Another alternative is that you might put these boards, > along with the minimum of processor, heatsink/fan, video > card (if not onboard video), PSU... have the system ready to > run except for having no memory, then take it to a mom-n-pop > PC shop at which you had already arranged for them to put a > memory module in to test it. If you worded your request > right, they might do it in front of you while you wait, for > free, though they might expect you to buy the memory from > them which can cost a lot more than best prices online. That is a very good idea, and of course I would buy it if it worked. > The lazy answer is to just buy a 1GB PC3200 module from
> Newegg then if it doesn't work, return it accepting a 15% > restocking fee. Are the latest chipsets running the RAM bus and the FSB at different speeds? The last time I built a system, only some MBs and CPUs would operate without matching RAM amd FSB, though it seems like the trend was away from that for a number of reasons. I think that is a partial reason for both crazy cheap prices on RAM and and the wider types of RAM and speed. If I know that a specific RAM specification will work with *any* CPU that the MB can handle, I will feel a lot more at ease buying it before I know that eveyrthing else is ok. I have 3 systems and side from RAM and disks, there has to be at least one complete PC from that pile of hardware (he says as he prays). > For example (assuming a US seller) with
this:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820161626
>
> The loss of shipping cost, 15%, and return shipping (about > $2 USPS) would only be $13.50 IF none of the boards work > (but you should also try a new battery and clear CMOS while > AC power is disconnected before giving up on them). Thanks for all of the great ideas. | |||||||||||||
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Posted by kony on September 24, 2007, 4:04 am
Please log in for more thread options On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:25:37 -0700, Chris M
>
>> What about the memory in this Athlon box, is it PC133? Just
>> wondering as by the 1.2GHz era DDR was common. >
>Exactly. > > >>
>> No, the motherboard EEPROM which stores the bios, is >> decompressed by the processor into main system memory (which >> is missing) and thus, the system cannot POST at all without >> memory, so it will instead fall back to beeping, signifying >> no memory present. >
>That sounds familiar, I may have been through this scenario once many >years ago. At least the MBs are still possibly good. You know what I >just realized is that these MBs are configured w/ video chipsets >integrated and while I had thought it was possible that the POST would >get a few lines displayed as it hands data to the video (Inever knew >RAM was required so early), ... well, with integrated video you have a second problem, that this video uses the main system memory as a framebuffer so even if there were some way to execute the firmware to run a post, there would be no buffer for outputting the result to a monitor. >...but with the integrated video that uses
>system RAM, there is obviously no video RAM either! Without loading a >video board with its own memory, I don't know why I thought it would >work at all, I was not thinking it through, or at least not factoring >in the video config. LOL, I should read ahead in posts more often! >
>I have never used a system w integrated video. With faster FSBs and >RAM, I know this is not as much of a performance problem as it once >was, but I have 2 AGP video cards, one is a Matrox Millenium G450 and >the other is an Nvidia GeForce4 Ti 4400 based card w 128MB memory. It >was a mid-priced card when I got it in late 2002. I have not even >priced or even looked at video boards. Modern integrated video is faster than the G450 is, but the G420 is, as most of Matrox's cards, renowned for great analog output. The TI4400 is faster than this integrated video but the difference won't matter in 2D uses beyond usurping a bit of memory bandwidth, a few percent performance reduction when particular uses require utmost memory throughput. Modern integrated video is quite usable until one tries to play 3D games with it, or until there are missing features like DVI to drive higher resolution accurately on an LCD display. >I need to make sure I have
>expansion for an IEEE1394 Firewire board and possibly another NIC and >a PCI soundcard. I am going to be using this PC for multi-track >recording. The MB has the Intel AC97 chipset for sound, which again as >best I can remember, uses CPU rather than a dedicated audio processor. I would not be concerned about CPU utilization for this use, rather than onboard audio is typically horrible because if the noise present in the power supply to it's codec. Any reasonably good sound card is a large upgrade for your purposes, even if it doesn't have an audio "processor". >I am going to double check to see if this is still the case, becasue
>installing one of the boards I have is no problem, just a planning >issue. If this gets out of hand, I want to score a dual-core based >system, or at least a dual CPU system since I have matching CPUs. Go ahead and install the sound card, integrated AC97 audio is terrible for any serious use. The most one can hope is that their I/O analong devices are so low-fi that they can't hear the difference... but it's there. >What
>is the current situation with running 2 monitors? Do the video >chipsets each have to have the correct diver with this support? I seem >to remember hearing the Windows XP made multi-monitor support much >more accessable, whatever that means. Multimonitors were quite possible even with Win98, the key here is having dual monitor support from one video card and/or integrated video (which AFAIK, the intel 845 didn't commonly support as implemented on a motherboard) or having drivers the OS found acceptible. One key issue is that if you install a video card that isn't PCI type, on an AGP or PCI Express based board with integrated video, installing the video card disables the integrated video so it is no longer available for the other monitor output. However, many cards like the TI4400 may have dual monitor support by themselves. >I did build a dual CPU system
>running Windows NT 4 once back in 1998 I think it was, back when >Pentium 3s were the fastest available.WIth the cost of the MB it is >probably cheaper to buy one of the MB/CPU combo deals with a dual-core >CPU. I can't believe how cheap everything is. That is what I get for >being out of the loop for these 5 years. Recording multiple tracks doesn't require much of a CPU these days, unless you were trying to record into a compressed format (which I would avoid, unless this were just some normally-discarded audio like a surveillance recording. Otherwise, it is more important to have a semi-modern hard drive so it has reasonably good write performance. >> Another alternative is that you might put these boards,
>> along with the minimum of processor, heatsink/fan, video >> card (if not onboard video), PSU... have the system ready to >> run except for having no memory, then take it to a mom-n-pop >> PC shop at which you had already arranged for them to put a >> memory module in to test it. If you worded your request >> right, they might do it in front of you while you wait, for >> free, though they might expect you to buy the memory from >> them which can cost a lot more than best prices online. >
> >That is a very good idea, and of course I would buy it if it worked. It depends on the shop though, some charge a pretty substantial overhead for parts like these. It wouldn't be surprising if they asked $100 for a 1GB PC3200 DIMM, which is more than it would cost you to buy it online instead, either having to return it or buying a very small one and just abandoning it. Some shops are great and some are quite greedy, and I can understand "greedy" as a concept to survive because Dell et al have made it quite hard for many shops to survive selling hardware instead of services. >
> >> The lazy answer is to just buy a 1GB PC3200 module from
>> Newegg then if it doesn't work, return it accepting a 15% >> restocking fee. >
>Are the latest chipsets running the RAM bus and the FSB at different >speeds? They can, but not necessarily. >The last time I built a system, only some MBs and CPUs would
>operate without matching RAM amd FSB, though it seems like the trend >was away from that for a number of reasons. Today there is far more versatility in running different FSB and memory bus speeds, but having higher memory bus speed is better, so long as the memory or chipset or board doesn't require a large change in memory timings to remain stable at the higher speed. >I think that is a partial
>reason for both crazy cheap prices on RAM and and the wider types of >RAM and speed. If I know that a specific RAM specification will work >with *any* CPU that the MB can handle, I will feel a lot more at ease >buying it before I know that eveyrthing else is ok. I have 3 systems >and side from RAM and disks, there has to be at least one complete PC >from that pile of hardware (he says as he prays). > Get PC3200, it will work (Not just fine, but even better by having more of a stability margin) with the lesser speeds. Next consideration is CAS rating, but if you are buying 1GB modules instead of 512MB or lower, there is a price increase to go with CAS2.5 instead of CAS3 for the 1GB modules. Also beware of memory spec'd as needing over 2.6V for it's published specs, until considering very high end memory with very aggressive specs... PC3200 at CAS2.5 should not need more than 2.6V unless it's junk. | |||||||||||||
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> parts missing are RAM and Hard Disks. I do not have any 184-pin RAM
> modules to test the basic functionality of any of these PCs. I
> wanted
> to check the POST for more info on the CPU installed. 2 MBs
> (D845DRGs)
> have a range of 200 to 266 RAM req's and a third (an 845GERG2) can
> also use 333s. The CPUs are at least 1.4 GHz, and could be as fast
> as
> 2.5GHz based on the range the MBs can use. The MBs each have 2 slots
> for RAM, and I would like to affirm that at least one of them is
> worth
> my time and money (albeit modest as the prices are). If these are
> all
> bad, then my money spent on RAM will be wasted, and that leaves me
> with the decision to spend the money on a 512MB module to occupy one
> of the 2 slots (so I can ultimately run a Gig) or if I should buy a
> $15 module that I would not use long-term since they only have 2
> slots. I suppose I could buy the 128 mb to test them all and then by
> 1GB RAM modules, in spite of the higher cost of having it all on one
> module and even then, would it really matter if I had the 128 module
> installed when it also has a Gig module?
>
> I have been injured and out of work for nearly 5 years and literally
> every dollar matters. I am trying to replace 2 PCs I had purchased
> before my injury, to do a few home based income projects (PC based
> guitar lessons, running videos and multi-track recording). I have a
> broken 1.4 GHz notebook and a 1.2 GHz Athlon based mini-tower with
> 1GHz RAM but with a bad MB. So, even if the latest PCs have the
> lowest
> power CPU, I would have a replacement for these important PCs with
> the
> only expense being the RAM as opposed to buying a new MB for at
> least
> double or more the cost and it would also be more or less obsolete
> if
> anything else went bad with the MB.
>
> Do bottom line is that this article is being posted to find out what
> whether I can find any info while the POST is running until it find
> no
> RAM. I do not recall ever trying to partially boot a PC without RAM
> and I had expected at least a few lines of data about the CPU and
> BIOS
> before it stopped. If I find out that RAM missing will not allow the
> POST at all, then I am safe. If there is something else wrong, then
> I
> have to then decide how much it is worth trying to salvage at least
> one PC out of these 3.
>
> Can anyone advise me (via the group or email) what to expect when
> trying to boot an Intel MB (as indicated) without RAM?
>