Comp restarts.
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Posted by Jerry Chong on May 30, 2008, 11:42 am
Please log in for more thread options Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 3.16GHz Motherboard: Asus P5E3 Deluxe with Intel X38 chipset Ram: Mushkin Enhanced 2x1GB DDR3 1333MHz; Graphics Card: Asus GeForce 9800GTX 512Mb Sound Card: Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS Harddisk: 2 x WD120GB and 1 x WD320GB DVDRW: Pioneer 18X drive PSU: CoolerMaster Extreme Power Duo 650W with SLI ready I'm using Windows XP SP2. My problem is that my system would restarts itself during bootup (sometimes 2 or 3 times). This usually happens just as it enter windows, at the screen after the windows logo and before the desktop. I'm not sure but I think my problem could be my PSU being not as efficient as rated (at 70%) or it could be overheating (as I've read at http://www.motherboards.org/reviews/hardware/1648_1.html that this model is considered to have a pretty small heatsink for its power rating). But the system runs without errors after entering windows. The reason I'm saying it could be my PSU is that when I plug in only two of my HDD (2x120GB running in RAID 0) it boots up fine, no restarting. But when I plug in my third HDD (1x320GB) the problem starts. I can't figure it out, could my 1x320GB hdd be consuming thats much power? Or could it be some software problem or even a virus? Also I'm using only a 4pin ATX12V connector for my motherboard's EATX12V while the board uses a 8pin EPS + 12V power plug for the . Could this be the problem? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Jerry. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by lkboop on May 31, 2008, 12:00 am
Please log in for more thread options What you are describing is what is called an "Open Neutral or floating ground" In short what is happening when you connect your third hard drive the return path for the current is through the control cabling and not the power cabling and what this does is to cause all sorts of unusual voltages to be present. This problem is very difficult to troubleshoot because of the weird nature of the symptoms. This could be an intermittent open in the cabling or an actual loose connection in the power supply itself. This is a very common problem in the construction industry and very hard to find in a large buildings, but the same laws of physics apply in both cases. I would be suspicious of 4 pin ATX12V set up in regards as to loose grounds and the like. No software problem and not likely to be a virus; however, both of those are easy to trouble shoot compared to a floating neutral. Good Fortune Logan | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by kony on May 31, 2008, 1:28 am
Please log in for more thread options On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:00:35 -0700, lkboop
>Jerry Chong wrote:
>> Here is the spec for my system,
>> >> Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 3.16GHz >> Motherboard: Asus P5E3 Deluxe with Intel X38 chipset >> Ram: Mushkin Enhanced 2x1GB DDR3 1333MHz; >> Graphics Card: Asus GeForce 9800GTX 512Mb >> Sound Card: Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS >> Harddisk: 2 x WD120GB and 1 x WD320GB >> DVDRW: Pioneer 18X drive >> PSU: CoolerMaster Extreme Power Duo 650W with SLI ready >> >> >> I'm using Windows XP SP2. My problem is that my system would restarts itself >> during bootup (sometimes 2 or 3 times). This usually happens just as it >> enter windows, at the screen after the windows logo and before the desktop. Is the drive detected correctly in the bios POST enumeration? If possible boot to the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics and check the drive for errors. Those diags are avaiable from WD's website if you dont' have them (might've come in a retail drive package). You wrote that it restarts sometimes 2 or 3 times but then what? Does it eventually keep booting all the way into windows if you try a 4th time if/when required to? Does it only happen from a cold start, or also if you turn off the system and turn on after it'd been running long enough to be warm still, or also if you choose shutdown->restart from windows or hit the case reset butto
instead of turning the system completely off?
Try booting to safe mode, does it still happen then? >> I'm not sure but I think my problem could be my PSU being not as efficient
>> as rated (at 70%) That should not matter, in particular it could mean over time that excessive heat made the capacitors pop, or some instability with a higher load like when gaming which I assume you do (having 9800GTX video card) but since you haven't mentioned any other symptoms of instability we'll probably assume the only issue that stands out is that which has been mentioned. If your PSU isn't under warranty anymore and all else fails, unplug it from AC for a few minutes and inspect it, particularly the caps near where the exiting wiring harness attaches to the PCB. >> or it could be overheating (as I've read at
>> http://www.motherboards.org/reviews/hardware/1648_1.html that this model is >> considered to have a pretty small heatsink for its power rating). But the >> system runs without errors after entering windows. That would make overheating unlikely (or even if it were overheating to some extent, that might shorten it's lifespan but wouldn't cause _only_ this problem). >>
>> The reason I'm saying it could be my PSU is that when I plug in only two of >> my HDD (2x120GB running in RAID 0) it boots up fine, no restarting. But when >> I plug in my third HDD (1x320GB) the problem starts. Try plugging it into only power, not data, then booting windows. If that works ok, odds are windows is erring and rebooting because it can't deal with what it finds. Then the question arises as to whether this config worked previously without any changes inbetween the period when it last worked and now doesn't. If it did then we might more likely suspect the hard drive is failing, but of course there are small chances it could be many things and we lack some info that you know as I've pointed out or asked in various places in my reply. It's not totally impossible that you have a PSU problem, but unlikely that it would work to stabily initialize the system, pass POST, boot to windows without one drive and work ok at all times except with this one drive added. The added drive uses less power than putting your system under some load in windows, like gaming or running a CPU stress test (Orthos for example). >>I can't figure it out,
>> could my 1x320GB hdd be consuming thats much power? No, it shouldn't be consuming over 15W, if that. Video card alone consumes more just switching from 2D mode into 3D mode, before even starting gameplay. CPU alone consumes more just going from half utilization state booting to full load state on a demanding multithreaded task. IF it only happened when the system were cold, I would more likely suspect bad connectors, broken or cracked trace, or the beginnings of a capacitor failure that will get worse over time. >>Or could it be some
>> software problem or even a virus? >> Yes it definitely could be a "problem" per se, definitely it is part of the problem in the result you see, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is some hidden windows button or registry entry that would fix it, it would tend to mean windows isn't fault tolerant and if windows can't gracefully keep booting when a problem arises, you have to get rid of the cause to get rid of the observed effect. >> Also I'm using only a 4pin ATX12V connector for my motherboard's EATX12V
>> while the board uses a 8pin EPS + 12V power plug for the . Could this be the >> problem? Unplug your 4 pin connector and examine it's contacts, and the mating contacts on the board connector. If they look burnt or have a distorted shape then it may be a problem, but in general no, your processor does not use enough power that you need more than the 2 x 2, 4 pin connector to supply that power. If you were extremely overclocking, then it might be an issue but as the system stands it should be fine unless the contacts where damaged or defective in some way, and if this were the case then you would see an extreme drop in voltage when doing a stress test like Orthos, and instability that effected other things long before it mattered if you had one hard drive connected or not while booting. >>
>> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Jerry. >> >> >Dear Jerry
> >What you are describing is what is called an "Open Neutral or floating >ground" In short what is happening when you connect your third hard >drive the return path for the current is through the control cabling and >not the power cabling and what this does is to cause all sorts of >unusual voltages to be present. That is an interesting theory, but there is no evidence of this and it is exceedingly rare if possible, when one considers that there are at least 4 points of ground for a typical hard drive: 1) Data cables. All grounds together would probably be enough to carry the slight current a drive uses, though IF it were the only ground path then perhaps it could indeed be a problem since these are signal path wires. Even so, beyond enumeration windows needs little to no communication because it's booting from the other two in the RAID0 array (presumably, it seems the only reasonable conclusion to draw based on the rest of the info). 2) Chassis. HDD frame is common ground with PCB, connected by metal screw (usually) to conductive HDD rack which is common to motherboard ground. 3) Two power plug ground leads. Even if one were bad, the second is there and either alone could carry more current than the drive consumes, plus if both were bad we would have to wonder why and that it would seem as likely to have effected the 5V or 12V lines as well, equally or really moreso than ground pins since there is only one 5V or 12V lead per connector. I should pause and say that I am only considering the older 4 pin molex now, not SATA plugs. >This problem is very difficult to
>troubleshoot because of the weird nature of the symptoms. This could be >an intermittent open in the cabling or an actual loose connection in the >power supply itself. This is a very common problem in the construction >industry and very hard to find in a large buildings, but the same laws >of physics apply in both cases. I would be suspicious of 4 pin ATX12V >set up in regards as to loose grounds and the like. No software problem >and not likely to be a virus; however, both of those are easy to trouble >shoot compared to a floating neutral. While I don't know if what you are describing is common in the construction industry or not, the odds are low for it to be occurring with a hard drive in the computer industry, particularly one that manages to be detected and otherwise functional (as far as we know?). For the time being there is at least one thing the OP can do to rule out the suspicion of the added drive overtaxing the power supply. The drive power cable can be plugged in but the data cable removed, so that power consumption is practically identical but windows does not see this drive when trying to boot. I'm betting this is a software problem, that windows errs when it finds something it can't work around, perhaps the drive itself is damaged physically or logically, or there is a motherboard setting or bios flaw. So there might be more than one problem, the resultant problem only manifesting itself when a subsystem it depends on isn't working properly. The initial problem will take more digging, might be a drive failing or jumper bad, bad data connector/cabling or something else. What we dont' know yet is if this combination had ever worked, whether it just stopped booting in the same config that had worked previously, or if something about the system had changed prior to the onset of the problem. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by larry moe 'n curly on May 31, 2008, 8:28 am
Please log in for more thread options
Jerry Chong wrote: > Here is the spec for my system,
> > Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 3.16GHz > Motherboard: Asus P5E3 Deluxe with Intel X38 chipset > Ram: Mushkin Enhanced 2x1GB DDR3 1333MHz; > Graphics Card: Asus GeForce 9800GTX 512Mb > Sound Card: Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS > Harddisk: 2 x WD120GB and 1 x WD320GB > DVDRW: Pioneer 18X drive > PSU: CoolerMaster Extreme Power Duo 650W with SLI ready > > I'm using Windows XP SP2. My problem is that my system would restarts itself > during bootup (sometimes 2 or 3 times). This usually happens just as it > enter windows, at the screen after the windows logo and before the desktop. > I'm not sure but I think my problem could be my PSU being not as efficient > as rated (at 70%) or it could be overheating (as I've read at > http://www.motherboards.org/reviews/hardware/1648_1.html that this model is > considered to have a pretty small heatsink for its power rating). But the > system runs without errors after entering windows. > > The reason I'm saying it could be my PSU is that when I plug in only two of > my HDD (2x120GB running in RAID 0) it boots up fine, no restarting. But when > I plug in my third HDD (1x320GB) the problem starts. I can't figure it out, > could my 1x320GB hdd be consuming thats much power? That's a pretty good indication of a PSU being too weak for the system and not that you have a floating ground. Here's a real review of a 660W AcBel, the actual manufacturer of your CoolerMaster (if its UL.com registration is E131375). By "real" I mean the PSU was loaded down to its full rated power and not just with a computer system, which is usually a load of just 200-300W. www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/552/7 Notice that it failed the 378W test, even when the PSU was tested at 25C, or 5-15C cooler than a typical computer interior. It's normal for maximum output capacity to drop at higher temperature, and this proportion is typical for lesser designs. OTOH what Motherboards.org said about the heatsinks being too small may not be true because even first-rate PSUs, like Seasonics, use seemingly skimpy heatsinks in their models that have large fans. Also I don't see how the reviewer can conclude anything about the heatsinks without taking their temperatures. BTW, HardwareSecrets.com said that a 450W AcBel PSU was better than the 660W one. Never trust PSU reviews that don't include amp numbers. Some of the very few websites that do good PSU testing include XbitLabs.com, JonnyGuru.com, Enthusiast.HardOCP.com, TomsHardware.com, LegitReviews.com, HardwareSecrets.com, and ExtremeOverclocking.com. Don't trust power ratings, badly done reviews, or customer ratings.. It's safer to trust brands, and JonnyGuru.com has a list of good and bad products. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by kony on May 31, 2008, 9:14 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Sat, 31 May 2008 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT), "larry moe 'n
>
>Jerry Chong wrote: > >> Here is the spec for my system,
>> >> Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 3.16GHz >> Motherboard: Asus P5E3 Deluxe with Intel X38 chipset >> Ram: Mushkin Enhanced 2x1GB DDR3 1333MHz; >> Graphics Card: Asus GeForce 9800GTX 512Mb >> Sound Card: Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS >> Harddisk: 2 x WD120GB and 1 x WD320GB >> DVDRW: Pioneer 18X drive >> PSU: CoolerMaster Extreme Power Duo 650W with SLI ready >> >> I'm using Windows XP SP2. My problem is that my system would restarts itself >> during bootup (sometimes 2 or 3 times). This usually happens just as it >> enter windows, at the screen after the windows logo and before the desktop. >> I'm not sure but I think my problem could be my PSU being not as efficient >> as rated (at 70%) or it could be overheating (as I've read at >> http://www.motherboards.org/reviews/hardware/1648_1.html that this model is >> considered to have a pretty small heatsink for its power rating). But the >> system runs without errors after entering windows. >> >> The reason I'm saying it could be my PSU is that when I plug in only two of >> my HDD (2x120GB running in RAID 0) it boots up fine, no restarting. But when >> I plug in my third HDD (1x320GB) the problem starts. I can't figure it out, >> could my 1x320GB hdd be consuming thats much power? >
>That's a pretty good indication of a PSU being too weak for the system >and not that you have a floating ground. Here's a real review of a >660W AcBel, the actual manufacturer of your CoolerMaster (if its >UL.com registration is E131375). By "real" I mean the PSU was loaded >down to its full rated power and not just with a computer system, >which is usually a load of just 200-300W. > > www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/552/7 > >Notice that it failed the 378W test, even when the PSU was tested at >25C, or 5-15C cooler than a typical computer interior. IMO, the linked test is just about worthless because no variables were isolated. There is no mention of trying the test at a lower temp, for all we know it is as likely that the reason for shutdown was the low load on the 5V rail. While there are some things the hardwaresecrets reviews do well, it is fairly invalid to define a test and apply a PSU against that test, instead of recognizing what was rated - the rail current ratio, and accumlating data about under which variables it fails. We can say one thing for certain, in the linked test #4, there is no way it overheated enough to cause shutdown in 10 seconds. Similarly so in test 5, these are almost certainly output threshold limits exceeded. Key is the remark made on the page, "Over current protection (OCP) circuit was active and shutting down the power supply whenever we tried to pull more than 21 A from any +12 V rail." ... and yet, when dual rails aren't truely, completely independent, that may be what was happening in test #3 with a 14A + 14A load on both 12V rails. What is more important is that we don't know what the true limit if this PSU is, but it is reasonable to suspect that the OP's system was not drawing 28A @ 12V. I'd guesstimate OP's CPU and video card were consuming under 200W during boot, maybe 10W per HDD (on 12V rail), add maybe 20W more watts for fans and optical drive if it were spinning and you have 230W or 19A which is pretty close to the Test #2 linked above for 12V rail consumption... and that test #2 at 45C no less, which is below what a typical case ambient temp would be after having only been on for less than a minute booting windows. >It's normal
>for maximum output capacity to drop at higher temperature, and this >proportion is typical for lesser designs. OTOH what Motherboards.org >said about the heatsinks being too small may not be true because even >first-rate PSUs, like Seasonics, use seemingly skimpy heatsinks in >their models that have large fans. Also I don't see how the reviewer >can conclude anything about the heatsinks without taking their >temperatures. BTW, HardwareSecrets.com said that a 450W AcBel PSU was >better than the 660W one. > >Never trust PSU reviews that don't include amp numbers. Some of the >very few websites that do good PSU testing include XbitLabs.com, >JonnyGuru.com, Enthusiast.HardOCP.com, TomsHardware.com, >LegitReviews.com, HardwareSecrets.com, and ExtremeOverclocking.com. > >Don't trust power ratings, badly done reviews, or customer ratings.. >It's safer to trust brands, and JonnyGuru.com has a list of good and >bad products. The PSU may indeed be bad, but I find it hard to believe one hard drive would make or break it while booting, but it never showed instability any other time (like when gaming which is a higher load). | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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>
> Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 3.16GHz
> Motherboard: Asus P5E3 Deluxe with Intel X38 chipset
> Ram: Mushkin Enhanced 2x1GB DDR3 1333MHz;
> Graphics Card: Asus GeForce 9800GTX 512Mb
> Sound Card: Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS
> Harddisk: 2 x WD120GB and 1 x WD320GB
> DVDRW: Pioneer 18X drive
> PSU: CoolerMaster Extreme Power Duo 650W with SLI ready
>
>
> I'm using Windows XP SP2. My problem is that my system would restarts itself
> during bootup (sometimes 2 or 3 times). This usually happens just as it
> enter windows, at the screen after the windows logo and before the desktop.
> I'm not sure but I think my problem could be my PSU being not as efficient
> as rated (at 70%) or it could be overheating (as I've read at
> http://www.motherboards.org/reviews/hardware/1648_1.html that this model is
> considered to have a pretty small heatsink for its power rating). But the
> system runs without errors after entering windows.
>
> The reason I'm saying it could be my PSU is that when I plug in only two of
> my HDD (2x120GB running in RAID 0) it boots up fine, no restarting. But when
> I plug in my third HDD (1x320GB) the problem starts. I can't figure it out,
> could my 1x320GB hdd be consuming thats much power? Or could it be some
> software problem or even a virus?
>
> Also I'm using only a 4pin ATX12V connector for my motherboard's EATX12V
> while the board uses a 8pin EPS + 12V power plug for the . Could this be the
> problem?
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Jerry.
>
>