Z-Wave RF range

That wasn't end user feedback. Petem is one of the ASA morons who've tried to trash this newsgroup for the past few years. He doesn't do home automation.

Reply to
Robert L Bass
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Smarthome had nothing to do with the Echelon white paper - it is on an Echelon letterhead.

It may work for you if your home has none of the RF gremlins that most homes do and you (and neighbors) don't use other 900MHz devices. I'm sure your feedback will be welcomed.

Note that the UK poster in that other forum added an idle node halfway between house and outbuilding to bridge the gap. You might be able to do something similar, if needed.

You should also note the feedback from "petem" who has a more typical house.

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Reply to
Dave Houston

kinda like you huh?

Reply to
Don

No but I have other RF remotes here. Plus I do lots of EMC measurements for a living.

I haven't tried Z-Wave yet because I have experienced lack of range on all of the RF gear we have. Pretty much what Pete mentioned in a post further below. You can end a phone conversation simply by walking into the garage with the wireless phone. IMHO it doesn't make much sense to sink money into an RF based system. If it were available at Lowes or HD and there'd be a no-questions-asked return policy, then maybe. Although it would still most likely be a waste of time ;-)

construction sites for over 24 years that aluminum

rare since it represents an unnecessary cost (something

About 35 miles east of Sacramento, CA. Lots of houses here with foil-backed wool. It is still widely used, like on our roof six years ago. We have foil-backed fiber under a Decra metal roof. Same in Europe. When we insulated our attic we bought the "good stuff" which is foil backed. Yes, you could get cheap paper-backed but I've seen in other houses how that falls out of the rafters after a few years.

Then there is radiant heat. In our house some before us has cut off the pipes but it must have been marvelous: There is a 2" concrete mud bed over all the floors and lots of copper pipes in there. That is probably the reason why the reach of RF remotes from the downstairs room up is so poor.

Unnecessary cost? Sure. But there are still lots of homes going up around here that aren't the usual cookie-cutters. Where owners specify exactly what they want to have. One even built the whole thing himself, just him and his wife. They've got the best wall insulation that money can buy.

Reply to
Joerg

And by any chance they're still using a 900mhz phone save yourself the headaches and just buy 'em a brand new 5.8ghz setup. At least that's an /option/ unlike powerline noise...

Reply to
Bill Kearney

Ha! The company that's deliberately avoided the residential market for over a decade. Now there's a disappointment.

Reply to
Bill Kearney

If you're referring to the fellow who calls himself Petem, he's disingenuous, even more so than Houston. If I said Z-Wave was awful he'd claim it was the best thing since sliced bread. There's a raft of these charactewrs who wander in from the alarm newsgroup, posting garbage. He's one of them. You can pretty much dismiss anything he says.

It sounds like you've got a home that for some unknown reasons is problematic for RF. That doesn't make Z-Wave good or bad. It just means your house is RF unfriendly.

My home is what I consider "medium large" -- 3,800 sf under air and almost 3,000 sf non-AC space. I have two sets of wireless phones. The business phones are from Sony. They work everywhere except out by the mailbox (50 feet from the front of the garage). My wife's personal line is another brand. It works well in 3/4 of the house, poorly in the rest and not at all outside.

I just ordered some Z-Wave components to test in my house. I'll let you know how well they perform. FWIW, I spoke with Phil Kingery today (many old timers here remember him as "Uncle Phil", an avid HA enthusiast). He works for ACT marketing the Z-Wave. I asked what were the larges residential Z-Wave apps he knew of. He said they have a California single family residence with 220 nodes in it. There's another in Indianapolis with 80-something nodes. Both are exceptionally large homes. According to Phil, both systems work flawlessly.

If hard-wiring is an option, we agree. Wired hardware is almost always preferable. But if the choice is RF or X10 (or any of its derivatives like Insteon), I'll go for RF. BTW, I don't just denegrate Insteon because it has problems. It's the company itself which I sdon't like. They have a nasty habit of letting end users beta test their products without telling them.

As you probably already know, I sell HA products. After I test the stuff for a while I'll offer it for sale in my online store. If you decide you'd like to test a few units let me know. If they're problematic I'll take them back.

Perhaps.

Perhaps California is very different from Southern New England. In Florida we have concrete block walls and slab floors. Roofs are shingle, tile (like mine) or (rarely) metal. Exterior walls are insulated but not very much. Our walls are over a foot thick. The outside is concrete block with stucco. Inside that is a 2" insulated space and then sheetrock.

I haven't been there yet but I have a second home in Brazil. Don't even ask about construction techniques down there. :^)

Ours is glass wool with a sheet of plastic. Attics down here are shallow since roofs are not built for snow load. There's almost no usable space up there, except in the middle 10' or so of each wing.

I redid tyhe master bath in my CT home some years ago. It had always been cold and I hate walking on cold tile in bare feet so I installed radiant floor heating. You're right. It is wonderful! In Florida I only need heat a few times a year but my wife (tropical girl that she is) needs heat any time the outside air is below about

80ºF or so it seems. :^)

It could very well be.

I have a lot of DIY clients who've built their own homes. One couple I'll never forget. He's a builder. She's a policewoman. On her days off, even though she was pregnant, she helped in the construction. She called with a question one day when she was eight months along. I asked what all the hammering noise was in the background. "Oh, that's me. I'm working while I talk on the phone." I asked what she was doing. "Laying shingles." I have a picture which she sent of her and her husband with the newborn a month later. She's a really small person but that doesn't slow her down at all.

These folks built a 5,000+ sf home. She did the HA system herself -- an ELK M1G with over 50 sensors plus six zones of HVAC control.

Here we don't need insulation as much as physical strength to keep hurricanes and alligators out.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

even more so than Houston. If I said Z-Wave was awful

charactewrs who wander in from the alarm newsgroup,

To me it sounded like he had actually bought the stuff and tried it. It is always good to hear from people who have use a certain technology.

for RF. That doesn't make Z-Wave good or bad. It

Well, it may be RF unfriendly but my take is that technology marketed as home automation must be able to cope. Lots of houses out here like this one. Else there is going to be the usual rash of unhappy customers like you have it with X10. Or in the case of contractors the post-install complaints which makes them turn their backs on the technology if that festers.

3,000 sf non-AC space. I have two sets of wireless

by the mailbox (50 feet from the front of the garage).

poorly in the rest and not at all outside.

Our house is about 3000sqft and the phones we use are always pretty professional. None of the cheap stuff. Right now AT&T, before that it was Cincinnatti Microwave.

how well they perform. FWIW, I spoke with Phil

enthusiast). He works for ACT marketing the Z-Wave. I

have a California single family residence with 220

are exceptionally large homes. According to Phil, both

preferable. But if the choice is RF or X10 (or any of its

Insteon because it has problems. It's the company itself

their products without telling them.

Sounds like a large software company... ;-)

a while I'll offer it for sale in my online store. If

I'll take them back.

Thanks for the offer but I'll wait a little. I am pretty sure the range won't work where I live.

RF stuff out here is even more tough to operate. We are right next to a runway plus the Fedex freighter fly directly overhead and radio in their approach. Even the TV falls off the cliff sometimes.

have concrete block walls and slab floors. Roofs are

not very much. Our walls are over a foot thick. The

and then sheetrock.

Very different here. Two by fours, siding on the outside, drywall inside and AL-backed fiber inside, that's pretty much it. Our house in Europe looked like a fortress in comparison.

about construction techniques down there. :^)

I had a test generator from there. Oh man... but it somehow worked.

since roofs are not built for snow load. There's almost

Plastic backing wouldn't last more than a couple years in our heat.

cold and I hate walking on cold tile in bare feet so I

I only need heat a few times a year but my wife

80ºF or so it seems. :^)

Hmm, mine does, too, even though she is from Berlin/Germany where it's

0F or less much of the winter.

never forget. He's a builder. She's a policewoman. On

She called with a question one day when she was eight

"Oh, that's me. I'm working while I talk on the phone."

sent of her and her husband with the newborn a month

M1G with over 50 sensors plus six zones of HVAC

Wow. Reminds me of a software engineer. Her husband was a nervous wreck but she said "The baby in there will understand that this project must be finished before giving birth". When the last compile run was complete she told her husband that it's high time.

and alligators out.

Our here it's eartquakes and bears ;-)

Reply to
Joerg
[...]

for RF. That doesn't make Z-Wave good or bad. It

Just did a walk with our dogs before the storm rolls in. While the dogs were on the lookout for cats I peeked at houses from a Z-Wave point of view. Now ours is probably the most unusual, appearing like a "Y" from the air. This means RF must penetrate through that AL-backed insulation twice from many locations. Repeaters may ease that a bit and that would probably be quite easy here.

Not so in some of the houses I saw. Most are L-shaped where there is kind of a courtyard in the middle. Well, more of a driveway really. The way they are laid out it is tough to avoid having to transmit through walls unless you really plaster them with repeaters. But I figure that's what the casual DIYer won't do because he or she would start with a minimalist setup and that has to sell for $49.95 or less. Just like we started out with X10, one remote and one wall switch in the garage to be able to control the driveway lights without having to walk into the cold garage. That could be a tough one for Z-Wave in most of the houses around here.

Not that X10 is any better here, much of which has quit by now.

Reply to
Joerg

It sounded like that but you have to know the guy a little better. He's not here for an interest in HA any more than Olson or Morgan. They're a bunch of nasties who've clearly stated their intention to make this newsgroup uninhabitable in the past.

It would be good but he's not a candidate.

Various systems which are appropriate for one location may be totally inappropriate for another. It isn't necessary that a system be good for everu location for it to qualify as good in general.

Considering the success of cordless phones, wireless LANs and so on, I'd say that the vast majority of homes are not like yours. Speaking of phones, if cordless phones don't "cope" well in your home do you condemn them all as unacceptable everywhere else?

I don't have unhappy X10 customers. I refuse to sell the stuff.

RF systems work quite well in most locations. X10 festers. From what I've learned so far from experienced users (that automatically excludes Mr. Houston who once admitted he has no experience at all with it), Z-Wave works remarkably well. My home is large enough and spread out enough that it should provide a reasonable test platform for Z-Wave. As soon as I install it I'll let you know how it's working.

another brand. It

Judging from what you've said so far I concur that your house is not a good home for RF based systems. Since X10 is mostly a pile of $#%& that means you'd better stay away from Insteon, too.

I hear that. :^)

a few units

No problem. I'll let you know how it works for me anyway.

I'd be surprised if proximity of the airport is much of a problem. GA aircraft radios are not very powerful to begin with (usually less than 10 Watts) and signal strength falls off geometrically with distance. If there's a NAVAID on the field you could be getting some fun signals but most are not in the same band as anything you're likely to use for HA. ATIS, a continuously broadcast report of ground weather observations, should also be far from the frequency of your gear.

I'm not sure what kind of power the ATC radio puts out, but you said runway rather than an airport so I wonder if perhaps you're referring to a small airfield. Many (most?) of those are non-towered anyway. Some only have UNICOM service which is operated very sporadically. Some have nothing at all -- pilkots simply "self announce" before they maneuver in the area.

Every modern home I worked on in CT was insulated. The usual treatment today is to install unfaced batts and then tack a layer of clear poly across the entire wall. There are two reasons this is popular. First, it's cheaper. Second, it makes for an extremely vapor-tight barrier -- much better than paper or foile-backed batts which are open at every stud. Aluminum backed wool is virtually unheard of though some folks still use paper-backed.

From Brazil? What brand?

I suspect you're wrong about that. The plastic commonly called Visqueen is made from low density polyethelene, a type of thermoplastic with a melting temperature around 230ºF. It doesn't break down from prolonged exposure to temperatures lower than its melt point. Even in the SoCal desert attic temperatures never reach 230ºF unless there's a wildfire present and at that point you have more serious concerns than the vapor attic barrier.

Heh, Angela occasionally asks me to take her on a drive up North during the winter so she can see what snow looks like up close. She's only seen it at a distance in the Alps during several trips to Europe. I know her better than to ever do that. She'd make me drive straight home the moment she fealt chilly air. :^)

And idiot politicians who can't even act.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

I guess it depends on the DIYer. Friday is usually a light day but this one was slightly better than average. We had 16 sales. Five were complete systems. The rest were upgrades. The complete systems averaged over $1700.

Reply to
Robert L Bass
[...]

that the vast majority of homes are not like yours.

condemn them all as unacceptable everywhere else?

No, that's different. People are used to phones conking out while walking, they know that from their cell phones. But a button that's glued to a wall and suddenly quits is considered "defective" in the eyes of a non-technical consumer.

It's like with cars. A tire blow-out is considered as something that can happen. An engine that quits is, nowadays, considered something that's not supposed to happen.

I can sure understand why. That's also why I wouldn't want to go into the HA biz myself yet ;-)

learned so far from experienced users (that

all with it), Z-Wave works remarkably well. My home is

platform for Z-Wave. As soon as I install it I'll let

another brand. It

home for RF based systems. Since X10 is mostly a pile

a few units

Yes, please let us all know.

radios are not very powerful to begin with (usually

If there's a NAVAID on the field you could be

likely to use for HA. ATIS, a continuously broadcast

of your gear.

rather than an airport so I wonder if perhaps you're

Some only have UNICOM service which is operated very

before they maneuver in the area.

That's exactly how this airfield works. The runway lights are "keyed on" by keying the mike 4-5 times. They do that right over our house and a 5W transmitter packs a punch if it's only 250ft away :-(

is to install unfaced batts and then tack a layer of

First, it's cheaper. Second, it makes for an extremely

open at every stud. Aluminum backed wool is virtually

Until there is a fire. You might want to get out as fast as possible when that stuff starts to burn. Remember the disaster at Duesseldorf airport? I used to live close to it when that happened. The people in there were killed by toxic fumes, not the fire.

I don't remember if it was from Eudgert or another brand. It puzzled people visiting my lab when they saw a front panel with all Portuguese on there.

made from low density polyethelene, a type of

from prolonged exposure to temperatures lower than its

unless there's a wildfire present and at that point you

In our house Visqueen was only used for the vapor barrier under the cement bed that all floors have. But I can only tell you that in the garage it crumpled wherever a wee bit stuck out. Ok, that's 35 years now but I expect construction to last a lot longer than that. Aluminum does.

winter so she can see what snow looks like up close.

I know her better than to ever do that. She'd make me

Arnold sure does a much better job than the one before, IMHO.

Reply to
Joerg

The comparison doesn't hold. Mr Houston is trying to convince you that things running in the 900mHz band have an average range of

20-25 feet. That is total BS and he knows it.

Appliances fail. Lights burn out. HA components occasionally need service. The issue here isn't whether things can fail. The question raised is what is the range of Z-Wave, a 900mHz RF system. I say it's a good deal more than the 25-30 feet some have claimed. Experience tells me that.

If you're waiting until there are no problems, forget it. You'll never get there. Every industry always has problems. I choose to work in this trade because I enjoy it. It's also modestly remunerative. :^)

I once had some fun with a lady friend. We were flying over a non-towered airport in CT just before dark. I was a student pilot and my instructor was in the right seat. I was at the controls. As we approached I pointed out the airport to her below my left wing. I said, "Hmm. They forgot to turn on the lights" and then pretended to broadcast, saying, "Uh, Jim?... Yeah, this is Robert. You forgot to turn on the lights again." Then I keyed the mic a few times and the lights came on. I muttered into the intercom, "That guy's always forgetting..." My instructor gave a little smirk and neither of us let her in on it. :^)

There's plenty of more noxious stuff than Visqueen to burn in a house.

A few weeks ago briefers told Dubya Bush that two Brazilian soldiers had been killed in Baghdad. Bush began to weep. Through his tears he asked, "How many are in a brazillian"?

wee bit stuck

I've worked in attics that had Visqueen installed quite a few years ago. I never noticed any of it becoming brittle. I wonder if contact with chemicals leaching out of the cement as it cured might have been an issue. Not being a chemist I couldn't tell say but if you were to claim there's Visqueen inside a Z-Wave transceiver I'm sure Dave would tell you that it will fail within weeks. :^)

What is it with California anyway? You guys have millions of geniuses working in Silicone Valley yet you hire moron ex-actors as governors. Oh, well. At least this one can't become president.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

well now you are dead wrong.... I don't do it for my job,but I do play with it for fun...

been playing with x-10 for some times,but I never asked anything here,cause all was very simple,too bad it so unstable unless you put whole house filter and surge protector,and even there,it still flaky..

was hoping a bit more from z-wave,but seen it was not that simple...

"Robert L Bass" a écrit dans le message de news:

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Reply to
Petem

thanks for not letting mr bass think for yourself..

when he say that I am disingenuous,well he is right,but that's when I talk to him...

I did had some different political idea then some in the ASA newsgroup,but on the technical side,I do talk about alarms,and when I see a question and that no one gave the same answer I would give,I post it as soon as I can,but since I mostly read that ng either in the morning or very late at night most question have been answered and I don't do post like " I too know the answer and its that same as bla bla bla"

I am telling you that just so that when mr bass tell you I don't post much technical stuff,you have the answer why..

"Joerg" a écrit dans le message de news: ucGgh.3138$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

Reply to
Petem

"Robert L Bass" a écrit dans le message de news: CNednQ8x96kLTR7YnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com...

Never stated that,I stated that your life should be unliveable

Reply to
Petem

running in the 900mHz band have an average range of

It sure will be more than 25ft but it won't likely reach our garage ;-)

Just for the record I am not dissing Z-Wave or RF in general here but I wanted to raise a concern. After all, I work in the field of RF engineering ;-)

The issue here isn't whether things can fail. The

it's a good deal more than the 25-30 feet some have

there. Every industry always has problems. I choose to

Good for you. I work in the med electronics biz and maybe that makes me a bit picky. Our stuff has to work. All the time, even after having been smashed into an elevator door. A major conk-out can easily lead to a nasty lawsuit or at least cause some FDA guys to waltz in there and fasten a gigantic padlock on the factory doors. It's happened.

airport in CT just before dark. I was a student pilot

approached I pointed out the airport to her below my left

broadcast, saying, "Uh, Jim?... Yeah, this is Robert.

the lights came on. I muttered into the intercom,

neither of us let her in on it. :^)

:-)

Don't we all play those games? Once I joked a bit after the gear was lowered "That didn't sound normal!". My wife told me never to do that again. Well, after we had an engine out over the Atlantic I kind of don't do that anymore.

Sure, but why add to the mix if it isn't necessary? I try to avoid plastics when I can. And wood, because that stuff not only burns but also rots.

killed in Baghdad. Bush began to weep. Through his

wee bit stuck

never noticed any of it becoming brittle. I wonder if

an issue. Not being a chemist I couldn't tell say but

Dave would tell you that it will fail within weeks. :^)

:-)

in Silicone Valley yet you hire moron ex-actors as

Not yet, and maybe he doesn't want to. But he sure is a good governor IMHO. I don't like his movies though. Not because of his acting but because I don't enjoy those kinds of movies at all.

Reply to
Joerg

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Their regular price looks kind of painfully high.

10ft sounds wrong. I'd contact the manufacturer, something must be broken. Unless you have a strong noise source on that frequency range like a babyphone or something like that. Or a cordless phone because some of them constantly chat with the base so they can beep if you walk out of range.

Just came back from the wood pile. Even the tarp over that is aluminum backed. And this is not some super-tarp but the usual Costco edition.

Reply to
Joerg

"Joerg" a écrit dans le message de news: 8cmhh.34612$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...

As soon i left the dimmer hanging by the wire outside of the metalic box,i was getting better range,having to change my metal box for plastic one is what i call a bis stop sign for most DIY,i dont care i am an electrician and an alarm technician(top that with an electronic collegial degree,speciality telecom)

all the device have been sent back to the web syte owner for full refund...

they dont use that type of stuff in the south....

Reply to
Petem

That would depend on how many other nodes you were to use and their placement. If Z-Wave passes my test (nodes about evenly spaced to reach all three wings of the house) I'll be adding lots more. I have 55 switches, dimmers and fan controllers inside the house, about 10 more outside and about 20 outlets I want to control.

I didn't get the impression you were being unfair. It's Dave Houston's deliberate misrepresentations with which I took issue.

Assuming the owner remembers to change the oil, that is true. There was this beautiful Chevy conversion van I once owned, however, and... oh, well. :(

there. Every industry always has problems. I choose

picky. Our stuff has to work. All the time, even

lead to a nasty lawsuit or at least cause some FDA

It's happened.

"That didn't sound normal!". My wife told me never to

don't do that anymore.

The only engine failure I ever experienced was with my CFI flying right seat and my son in the back seat. At first I thought he had done something so I was totally relaxed (a little annoyed, actually, because I didn't want him to scare my son) as I went through the engine failure checklist: applied full throttle and carb heat, pushed forward to put it in best glide speed, checked all the goodies while making a slow turn back toward a golf course we had just passed. When I'd completed the check list I asked the CFI, "OK, now what?", expecting him to reach over and undo whatever he'd done to kill my engine.

Instead he said, "I don't know. This isn't a test."

[me, silently: Aggggkkkkhhh!]

Then he said, "Are you forgetting something?"

I thought for a moment and then put the fear of God into my boy as I keyed the yoke button and said, "Mayday, mayday, mayday. This is Cessna ######. I have an engine failure and will attempt off airport landing approximately 18 miles West of Brainard Airport. I am a white 172 with red lettering. I have three souls on board."

In truth, young Joe thought we were pulling his leg all the way up to when Center replied, telling me to squawk 7700 which I had only simulated doing at first, thinking the CFI had been testing me.

My wife won't even ride in anything that seats less than 100 pax but I love small airplanes. BTW, there's a guy we know who claims (you'll love this one) that Boeing loaned him a brand new 737 so he could test his pet theory about a fatal airline accident. He says he snap-rolled the 737 at 5000 AGL... and lived to tell about it. The guy never flew anything bigger than a paper airplane, of course. :^)

Plastic is pretty tough to avoid. I'm replacing my roof at present. The new method doesn't use tar any more. It's a peel and stick layer of what looks like pantry shelf paper, except wider and heavier.

He's inelligible. He wasn't born in the USA.

His movies are mostly just silly. He's so wooden it becomes a sort of comedy.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

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