What can I replace this latching relay system with?

Just purchased a house built in the early 50s. Almost all the lights are controlled by latching relays, with low voltage switches in the walls connected to the relays in the ceiling boxes with 3 conductor cable (there are also some relay-controlled outlets, and I haven't yet figured out where the relays are for those). There is a central transformer, connected to each switch by additional two conductor wires (no idea if they are daisy chained or home run, but I assume the former). There are also a couple of remote multi-function switches, which have a knob that allow you to choose one of 10 or so different relays to control, along with a switch that turns the remote fixture on or off. I assume the remote is wired directly to the remote relays using more 3 conductor cable. Most wiring is similar to what we used to call rotor cable (for wiring up TV antenna rotors), but some is simply three solid conductor wires twisted together.

Anyway, I'd like to replace this sytem with something a bit more modern. Although all the relays work (one or two are starting to give me a little trouble), I'd like to have the ability to dim lights, and even better, set up some automated controls. Is there any system that will allow me to use the existing wiring infrastructure? The walls are plaster so I don't want to tear them apart.

Please respond in the newsgroup.

Thanks,

Steve

Reply to
Steve Wechsler
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If the circuits are controlled from a central relay / power distribution board you might be able to replace it with a CentraLite system. You'd have to run new low voltage control cables to the places where the remote buttons are now.

A simpler method would be to use a PLC such as X10 or Insteon (many threads here describe problems with these) or an RF system such as Z-Wave. Unfortunately, each of these systems was designed for a somewhat different physical construction than what you have so each would involve some degree of kludging to make it work.

How handy are you at running new low voltage wires in an existing home?

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Some thoughts:

1) There is a yahoo group dedicated to GE Low Voltage (GELV) which may be what you have (What you describe matches what I've seen in a GE home in Cincinnati). I believe that folks in this group track availability of replacement parts. They may also have some tips on retrofits.
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2) Three wires (more or less regardless of insulation, gauge and twisted or not ) is adequate for local up/down dimmer controls (2 SPST with common hot). They might also prove adequate for Dallas 1-wire protocol
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. So the low-voltage part of your infrastructure can be recycled, although it might involve some home brew. Low speed, 1-way serial control RS-232/485 is also within reach and 2-way is possible with the addition of local dc power or a parasitic mode.

3) Presumably you want to modernize from on-off relay switching to dimmers. I'd check into Centralite

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as a good option that could recycle your AC wiring.
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has announced that they will be supporting Centralite in the near future.

I have some stuff on homebrew hard-wired lighting including DMX512 at

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but that server will be down until the weekend.

HTH ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc_F_Hult

I would think it would be as simple as shunting past the relays so the switch or outlet is always on and then controlling the loads via PLC or RF off-the-shelf stuff. You could always keep all relays energized, but why waste the current if you can bypass them? In any event, I believe it's going to require creativity on the part of the OP.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Fascinating stuff. Got any photos? I'll be you could get "This Old House" interested in taking on your project - they love stuff like that.

If you can bypass all the relays and keep the switches and outlets energized all the time, you can use traditional PLC or RF control methods. You may be able to do that at each outlet but you may only be able to do it at the rotary switch, energizing each segment with a shunt.

Modern HA equipment that uses hardwiring usually requires CAT5 be pulled to each switch and outlet for low voltage signalling and control purposes.

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Your 3 wire low voltage circuitry wouldn't likely cut it for anything but a very home brewed system, especially if it's energized or interconnected in unexpected or unknown ways. "Undocumented existing cabling" as the phone company techs like to say when they explain why they are laying new cable and not using the old stuff.

My hunch is replacing the three wires with CAT5 in a plaster and lathe house is way more than you want to undertake and I'd agree. I'll bet that you also want something standard that's not going to be a real problem when selling the house.

I'd probably wire an Ocelot and a SECU 16 to the existing antique controller to take over the function of "twist" and command. That would allow you to "twist" that dial in milliseconds, electronically. You could map a standard X-10 controller to your existing dial layout easily. Then you could replace the existing, non-dimming switches with PLC dimmers which you can also control via the Ocelot and SECU16 relay controller. That way you'd have your dim function as well. Add an RF transceiver and you can control and dim the lights wirelessly.

A lot of this depends on exactly how the wiring is configured. You'll probably have to determine whether neutrals are pulled to each switch. You might have to test to see if PLC will indeed work at all in your application before going very far.

The folks in the ADI forum should be able to tell you what such a solution would entail, costwise, timewise and skillwise.

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-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Thanks for the responses, everyone. Yes, Marc, you were correct, it is a GELV system, and while I did subscribe to the Yahoo group, the traffic on it is very low. However, there is some interesting info there. But it seems that the system is common enough in post-war homes that This Old House wouldn't have any interest... (I don't know if you were serious about that point...)

The ocelot looks interesting, I'll have to investigate that further. I've worked with X10 in the past and am familiar with its reliability issues. However, I never really went past the basic switches, outlets, lamp modules and timer/controllers available at X10.com...

Since the relays are latching there's no reason to keep them energized, I could just turn them on and leave them. However, it's probably better to remove them from the system entirely. I haven't investigated yet, but I assume they were installed in such a way that they can be replaced without tearing up the ceiling, and if they can be replaced, they can be replaced with a more modern control system (assuming I can get the modules to physically fit in the old locations).

It seems like what you're suggesting is that I replace the wired switches with wireless...is that correct?

Reply to
Steve Wechsler

The problem you're going to have is that, as I understand it, you don't have

120vac at your switch locations, so none of the PLC systems are going to work.

Pulling new Cat5 to switch locations, even in a plaster/lathe house shouldn't be too difficult if you have attic and crawlspace. If you could get 120vac to your switch locations, you could use a PLC switch there, and then use inline modules in the ceilings. It could get pretty tight, though.

I wonder if it would be possible to dream up a hack for an inline dimming module that would allow for hardwired up/down commands?

Perhaps a very simple PWM dimmer could be designed to replace your relays, and a PWM controller (a 555 with a pot?) could replace the switches?

How common is this old system? A plug-and-play replacement might be worth designing by someone smart, if they could make a few bucks. Or if they liked the challenge.

Reply to
E. Lee Dickinson

I think you will have problems finding dimmers to use the existing control wires.

You have 120V at the lighting fixtures and outlets. The relays swich this under control of the remote low-voltage switches.

I think (but am not expert) most of the central lighting systems (e.g. Centralite, LiteTouch, Vantage) mount their dimmers and switches near the entrance panel and require home-runs of the 120V lines from each controlled location. Neither your 120V nor low voltage control wiring goes where it needs to go for centralized systems but you may be able to mount dimmers in place of the relays. You'll have to check with the various companies that make this type system. I posted a list of such companies a few months back to CHA.

You haven't mentioned your budget. These GE systems tended to be installed in upscale residences (I saw my first one in 1962 next door to Bing Crosby's house in Atherton, CA.) but that doesn't always mean the neighborhood is still upscale 50 years later.

You said the walls are plaster. Is it over plasterboard, lath or wire-lath?

SmartHome's In-LineLinc Insteon dimmers can control the loads but I'm not sure how you would control the inline dimmers since you need a transmitter (normally a wall mounted switch) connected to 120V and your switch locations do not have 120V.

I d>Just purchased a house built in the early 50s. Almost all the lights

Reply to
Dave Houston

In my recent experience, there are not problems finding 120 VAC lighting dimmers using (nominal) 0-10 vdc . Analog low-voltage control of dimmed AC lighting has been conventional and available for many years.

One readily available 0-10vdc analog input module that I have used successfully in a commercial installation and have described previously in comp.home.automation is Crydom's 0PCV2425 that provides variable power ("dimming") with a (maximum rated) 25 amp 120- 240VAC load.

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15 and 40-amp versions are also available and also in stock at

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Ordering from

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is a breeze and delivery is near instantaneous.

(Note: As I remember/understand the US National Electrical Code (NEC), the 'switch' in this application needs to be de-rated 25% from max, so "15 amp" solid state relays (SSRs) do not meet NEC even for 15 amp lighting circuits. Jist my "understanding" -- not gospel.)

For a wall controller, a simple approximately 10k potentiometer used as a divide of a 10vdc supply will work perfectly and with reliability that surpasses any powerline control system. However, this doesn't provide you with "home automation".

My web site should be back up this weekend and may give you some additional ideas on analog control for home automation including using DMX512, SSR's and motorized potentiometers for HA control *if* you are interested in DIY solutions or have an installer that is willing and able to do (much ? ;-) more than installing commercial, turn-key systems.

... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc_F_Hult

I checked out those Crydom controllers, and geez, they are expensive - about $75 a pop. And I'd still need to add a pot at each switch location.

I'm now considering an Insteon system; they apparently have an inline module that could be mounted in a ceiling box. I'd then have to find a battery powered switch that could be mounted in (or over) the old switch openeings and transmit the signals to an insteon tranceiver (at least, I could do it this way with X10, but I don't like the delay that X10 has, and also they don't appear to have a single wireless X10 switch). Smarthome's search engine isn't particularly good, and I got tired of wading through pages of products.

Another option would be to hack an X10 pro dimmer with wired remote switch to somehow mount it in a ceiling box, and mount the remote switch in the standard locations, using the existing wires to connect the two. However, this option would be a last resort.

Opinions?

Thanks,

Steve

Reply to
Steve Wechsler

Oh, and to those who were asking about running new wiring...

It is a two story house with plaster walls and ceilings over (mostly) rock lathe (also some wire mesh, mostly around bathrooms). I could run

120V wiring to the wall switches on the first floor; this would be fairly easy. However, there is no attic, so redoing the second story switches would be very difficult. It's not worth opening the walls for this; we're doing enough other work and we want to finish the house in the next few weeks (the lighting project is separate, and won't be affected by our other work).

Steve

Reply to
Steve Wechsler

Reply to
Dave Houston

Dave, you're reminding me of my least favorite NEC item ever: All the freeking staples that have to go in on romex, when the wall is opened.

These staples guarantee two things: 1) that I will never be able to pull the romex back out of the wall or use it as a pull wire for something new.

2) That a misplaced screw or nail will puncture the romex instead of simply pushing it aside.

I hate it so much that I have considered waiting to wire rooms until after the drywall is up, so that I can wire it as renovation wiring.

Reply to
E. Lee Dickinson

OK. Then here's a $60 solution that allows for conventional home automation.

It is, as best I know, a novel approach -- leastwise I've never seen it described before -- that would also satisfy many/most Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJ; aka inspectors) of the US National Electrical Cod (NEC) Jist this geologist's opinion to be shure ... ;-)

1) Install an INSTEON ICON dimmer ($19.99) at the wall switch location. Connect the black and white (hot and neutral) of the dimmer to the primary of a UL listed, low-voltage transformer such as those used for doorbell installation. They are available for ~$10 at your local Big Box. The red wire on the dimmer is unused (put a wire nut on it). Connect the secondary connections of the transformer to two of the low-voltage wires that go to the ceiling box. Bypass (interconnect ) both primaries to both secondaries using 0.1 or 0.2ufd 300VAC mylar or other high-frequency, non-polar capacitor (more on this later). This provides for the INSTEON signal to get across the transformer which attenuates high frequency. 2) At the ceiling,conventionally connect the ceiling lamp (i.e., the load) to the AC line using an INSTEON inline dimmer or (essentially the same thing, except 1/2 the price) an INSTEON ICON dimmer (with the switch plate removed if you prefer). Also connect a transformer *identical* to the one at the wall switch to the neutral and hot (Black and white wire) and also bypass the transformer with two capacitors as with the one at the wall switch. 3) Set this up using the tap-to-program manner of having one INSTEON dimmer (the one at the wall switch location) serve as the controller for a dimmer that controls the load (in the ceiling.

If:

1) your low voltage wire conforms to code to begin with, 2) the transformer produces 50 volts peak or less, 3) your local inspector doesn't balk at the bypass capacitors (these are, after all, used the various UL-listed X-10 filters and couplers including X-10 Pro's) and 4) you conventionally mount the transformer (line voltage inside the j-box; low voltage outside)

you may be OK NEC-wise. (You would need to determine this with your inspector. My opinion is irrelevant.)

I'll test out this tomorrow. I have all the components in hand.

HTH ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc_F_Hult

Dave has hit the nail (pun intended) on the head.

Don't you just hate it when things are done properly?

Steve

Reply to
Steve Wechsler

If "done properly" even the low voltage wires would be in conduit and you would have little difficulty. I live in a building built about the same time and in the same fashion and nearly everything is in conduit.

Reply to
Dave Houston

Speaking of doing things properly, there are very few options that are going to allow your house to pass inspection once you decide to modify the system. If I were you, I'd want something that you allows you to restore back to the old GE system, which apparently passes code or passed code once upon a time. A valid certificate of occupancy is not an intangible benefit in the real estate world.

If you can't design a "loosely coupled" retrofit, be very careful about what you select. Try to find out before sinking $$$ into something whether it's likely to be certified by an inspector. You may want to consider whether you want to risk making him so frequent a visitor you begin to think of him as a member of your immediate family.

From what's been discussed here and elsewhere, a kludged electrical system can force you to take a hit of up to $20K on the sale price. It frightens far more buyers and real estate agents than it excites. Of course, it may be that you already got a $20K price break because the previous seller had trouble selling the house because of unusual lighting system. Still, if it's currently approved, that's worth something.

You won't be able to do *anything* that passes code without a schematic of the original installation and lots of time spent with a meter, a wire tracing set and a pen and paper. Even then, inspectors don't usually trust what they can't see or trace. If they even suspect you fished a single wire through existing staples, you'd be all washed up. They would assume ALL the cables in the wall had insulation scraped off them. That's how they think.

They are not likely to let you hook 110VAC devices to wires buried in walls they can't see, especially when there's a chance you may have inadvertently connected low power switches to 110VAX loads. That's why electrical inspections have to be done before the drywall goes up. Most inpsectors have the power to make you rip out every square inch of wallboard if you screw up, too, before they'll approve your job.

The reality is that inspectors can throw you right out of your own house and revoke your C of O if they decide there's a risk to any of the occupants. If you're doing all the mods yourself, and you're not a licensed electrician, it's doubtful they'll give you the benefit of the doubt on any issue that arises. If you're not inclined to get the place inspected while doing the work, well, that's only putting off the trauma to some unknown future date in all likelihood.

The place I'd make the change is at the big rotary switch(es) and at the fixtures and outlets themselves. I'd take all the wires coming out of the wall to the rotary switch and feed them into a multi-conductor connector. I'd put the mate on pigtails going to the rotary switch so that I could reconnect the old device easily in a few seconds. I would use that same style of connector to interface the control wires with an Ocelot control system. "Plug compatible" as the old mainframers used to say.

Although the wall switches are low voltage, too, you've still got options like in-line modules and socket rockets. The Ocelot and a relay control module like the SECU16 interfaced to your main rotary controller(s) will give you tremendous automation capability in terms of turning loads on and off remotely according to rules.

The Ocelot controller is smart enough to interpret a rapid flick of the old-style lightswitch as a request to enter dimming mode and to consider the next two toggles within a period you define as requests to begin dimming and end dimming. Whether that would work depends on whether the local switch signal can be sensed at the remote multiswitches or not.

You might not even have to use an Ocelot if you can make a connector that serves to keep all relays open and in the on state. Then, use the PLC inline modules, socket rockets and wall outlets to control the house like any other house with PLC equipment.

It sounds like your system is "once on, always on until turned off." If so, perhaps removing the LV switches, shunting the wires to "always on" and covering the switch plate with a "StickaSwitch" would be the way to go. You should be able to revert easily if you want to. Yes, there's a tiny lag for RF switching, but I understand they've deliberately put a time lag in UPB hardwired switches (to wait for a double tap) so if you don't like the lag, be careful what you chose instead.

If it isn't, you can get in-line modules, socket rockets and wall outlets into the current system, they usually are already UL approved and not too much of an issue for an inspector. Controlling them from an X-10 wireless switch would give you dimming and light control.

While I agree that X-10's remiss in not have a single button, `1 unit RF light switch (except the ugly panic button) my wife, who hated StickaSwitches to begin with, has found them less objectionable recently. That's because I re-arranged the lamp unit codes so that with three or four buttons, she can turn on lights in her path before she turns off the lights behind her from one location. And there was no cutting of plaster, spreading of plaster dust or rewiring house circuitry. That's probably the most important feature.

Bear in mind, this is all abstract information. The data I could find about GELV is apparently about units installed in the early 90's. It sounds like your unit is much older. I'd really want to run some multimeter and tone tracer tests before I decided on how to proceed for real. There are lots of ways they could have designed their relays so that advice concerning one type might not be appropriate for other configurations.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Bobby's hypothetical hyperbolic hippo-speak here and later in this post does the newsgroup and those that want assistance a disservice in my opinion.

I've been modifying, updating, repairing, and restoring wiring in old houses for 30 years and *never once* has an inspector asked to see a schematic. Nor have I owned or heard of *any* old house that came with a schematic.

Apparently Bobby doesn't have much experience about what he writes, or he wouldn't make such sweeping, misleading statements. (We know that he is not purposefully being misleading, but the effect is still negative IMO.) Last month (and on every other occasion I have had wiring inspected), the inspector did exactly what Bobby said they are unlikely to do.

You are referring to new construction. This is not new construction.

Rest of hippo-speak deleted.

Steve: I assuming that you want a long-term solution (not "hometoys").

The approach that I have used with respect to meeting National Electrical Code in retrofits and remodeling of old homes in the US is to design a prototype/example and present the prototype to a local electrical inspector prior to installation. My experience has been that inspectors can have good ideas that they are willing to share and so improve your project or make it less expensive.

The National Electrical Code has become progressively more specific with respect to low voltage residential wiring which reduces the variability in judgment and opinions of inspectors. This is a Good Thing in my opinion, because it makes it easier to design and install a system that is code-compliant.

A change, pertinent to your needs, was incorporated in the 1999 and subsequent editions that allows for low-voltage control wiring to enter a switch box also containing 120VAC wiring for the purpose of lighting control. I found out the hard way that getting an inspector to accept this was a crap shoot prior to 1999. By now, competent inspectors know about this important (to your application) clarification.

And increasingly inspectors have experience with a broad range of low-voltage wiring. For example, the inspector that was at my house last month for a final inspection of my kitchen remodeling recognized instantly and without prompting that the 4-conductor w/ ground, 10AWG cable sticking out from the ceiling was for future low voltage lighting and was not being inspected on that trip. Five years ago, I would have gotten a lecture on how 10 gauge wire was not code for lighting on a 15-amp circuit ;-)

At the risk of exhibiting perseverative behavior, let me repeat my advice that you work in advance with the electrical inspector. S/he may very well have good ideas that you can use particularly, if there are other houses in your area with similar low-voltage wiring.

(I've mostly bread-boarded the INSTEON over low voltage wiring test that I wrote about earlier in this thread. I'll use CAT5 and other wire as the communicating wire, two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt, 20VA "doorbell" transformers and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters. Results to be posted to

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)

HTH ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc_F_Hult

But Dave lives in a commercial apartment building, not a private residence, and different codes and norms apply.

The 3-story 1908-vintage stone Victorian house we owned for years had nearly all the wire in heavy, threaded conduit/pipe. It used 12-gauge wires with thick coal-tar insulation. For the day, it was the nec plus ultra of wiring, not just "done properly". It was a carry-over of a construction practice that was still in use for gas lighting, but today we would consider that a wiring job that required two pipe wrenches to be a it over the top except for ships or nuclear reactor or some such ....

By the 1980's both the copper and insulation had become brittle. It if came out of the conduit during remodeling when one pulled, it seemed like a good idea. If it broke, it was a nightmare. You could be trying to improve some minor thing and end up with no lights or worse and need to cut open the plaster lathe and start over all over.

... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc_F_Hult

I set up a test jig with two INSTEON light switches (didn't have dimmers available handily available but this is a test of INSTEON communication, not output mode) interconnected using ) two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt,

20VA "doorbell" transformers and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters.

The connection worked without error using both ~200 feet CAT5 and ~200feet

22 awg round (untwisted) telephone wire.

I'll post some pictures and a schematic later to

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HTH ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc_F_Hult

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