Windows with bottom sills less than 48 inches above the floor surface and all doors providing direct access for the home to the pool shall be equipped with an exit alarm meeting UL2017 specifications with a 85 dB rating at 10 feet and is either hard wired or a plug-in type. The device shall have a maximum 15-second deactivation switch, with the alarm and switch located a minimum of 54 inches above grade.
It's the UL2017 spec that has me concerned.
Since I intend to disable the alarm once the inspection is done, I was hoping to avoid the expense of installing a separate system. Any information would be appreciated.
Frank, Why did I know that you would react without even asking any thing. Well, first I don't have any children. Second, I have visited over 30 homes, both models and owned homes, and without a single exception either the oener has disconnected the alarm, or the builder has indicated that the alarm can be disconnected to allow the pool doors to be left open. Yes I am all in favor of protecting children against pool accidents, but this approach is rediculous. Most homes in FL are designed to have the pool area as a focal point with large sliding doors opening onto the pool area. These alarms do not allow you to even leave these doors open when you want to. You have to leave all doors closed at all times! That's what I consider rediculous. This code is a case of excellent intent, but rediculous implimentation. If most people are disabling them, because they are not useable, as appears to be the case, then the code accomplishs nothing, and should be replaced with a better solution. I don't expect someone with your reactionary bent to be able to understand this line of reasoning.
I apologize for over-reacting. I see this every day, though. People bypassing life-safety devices because they "false" or are a "nuisance" or they're too cheap to properly have them serviced. Put the alarm contacts on a timer if you have to "bypass" them. Heck, even one of those cheap mechanical ones will do. When the timer counts down after an hour the doors will re-arm. If you want to add some time, turn the knob again. If you permanently bypass the doors, you may live to regret it and that's all I'm worried about.
Unfortunately, you probably can't do it. The code doesn't only demand that the pool alarm meet UL2017 specs. It has to actually carry the UL2017 sticker. The ELK-M1G is an excellent controller but it does not carry the proper listing for a swimming pool alarm.
Some inspectors may give permission to use a non-listed device but most won't.
I understand the reasoning behind removing the alarm after the inspection. Many people have no children of their own and don't plan to have guests with small kids. To them the pool alarm law is a nuisance. Unfortunately, the law came about due to numerous tragedies. Like many other things the law tries to protect by laying down an inflexible requirement. I think there should be a degree of flexibility but the legislature didn't consult me about it. :^)
I can tell you what some folks I know have done about this. They install sensors on the doors and windows which face the pool area, connect them to the pool alarm leaving a loop of extra cable in the wall behind the alarm. An additional cable runs from the pool alarm to the HA or burglar alarm control panel. After inspection the wire is con- nected to the HA or alarm system and the pool alarm is powered down or even removed.
I can't exactly recommend such a procedure. I can only tell you that is how some folks do it. What you do in your own castle is well, you know. :^)
By the way, you can run several door and window sensors to a single pool alarm to save some of the cost. That's also less ugly than boxes at every opening.
How many Elk M1G systems did you sell before it was even UL Listed? You were one of the first to "flog" it on your website and it was about a year before the panel was finally approved. That was one of the most irresponsible things I've ever seen anyone do. Now you turn around and suddenly "see the light". That's gotta be one of the most disingenuous things I've seen you do in this Group. You're a two faced "anything for a buck" shill, Bass.
I'm not sure. Somewhere around 40 or 50 I think. The problem this gentleman faces is he has to pass inspection of the pool alarm. In Florida and California pool alarms (or fances) are mandatory. The inspector will usually insist on a UL2017 listed device.
Most inspectors will pass a residential HA or alarm system with the control panel displaying "UL Pending" which is what ELK (like every other maker of a new HA panel) did.
Correction. UL does not "approve" anything. The panel is now UL *listed*. However, it is not listed as a pool alarm. Fortunately for the gentleman who posted looking for assistance (not personal vendettas), the components he requires are less costly than the ELK-M1G.
Please leave your insults in the security newsgroup, Olson. No one here is interested in your war.
So there are "40 or 50" Elk M1G's out there that have a "UL Pending" sticker on them. I'm sure you've told your victims... errmmm... customers that this of course is just as good as a "UL Listed" sticker. What changes did Wade have to make to the hardware/firmware to obtain the "UL Listing", I wonder?
And you're also recommending he "disconnect it" *after* the inspection as well... Well Gee... That's real purfeshunal! You wouldn't by any chance also use the alias "Professor X", eh?
Heh... Sure... There's a real "fishy" smell in here.
Please leave you "PR Posts" in the CHA newsgroup, Bass. No one in the security one is interested in your wares.
Bob, you can't tell him here is how to do something really stupid and then disclaim it.
How many of those tragedies came about when a child was visiting but everyone thought, we will watch out.? You don't know the person. He can say all sorts of things that children will not be there and then turn out to be running a daycare facility. Now that you have posted it out for everyone in the world to see, some people will read the instructions and not the disclaimer and do it with less care.
If a tragedy happens, guess what their first thought will be - sue Bob.
you really don't know this guy very well do you? that's his modus operandi
and how many of those 'systems' has he sold that are still in the box that he's sent out certificates of alarm system installation so they can get their insurance discount. can you say fraud, also.
as song as he can sell some parts it's obvious he doesn't care what happens once the funds have cleared the bank. I noticed nobody else here was stupid enough to seriously take on this guy's question, may be hope for cha yet.
Apology accepted, and I agree with your point regarding by-passing safety devices for the reasons you stated. I will note however, that the timer solution you mentioned also violates the code and would not be permitted during inspection, thus would have to be done after the inspection, and thus also violates the letter of the code. The safety issue isn't access to the pool area, via the open sliding glass door walls, but rather someone falling into the pool unintentionally, be it a child or adult. The solution needs to be a system that monitors this occurrence. I also find it ironic that the code includes the provision that any door that is self closing, and has the handle at least 54 inches high, does not have to be alarmed. This was clearly done to allow the doors to the screened cage area to be exempt from the alarm requirement. DA!! Convenient for the pool maintenance company's, but hardly safe for most children, or even adults that could, without permission, enter the pool area. As I said, before, the wrong solution for a very real problem. I bet it wouldn't be hard to find a number of alternative solutions that would work far better, but that would not pass the current code inspection. These comments were definitely not aimed at you, but at the rediculous codes currently in place.
Dennis Raher
Frank Ols> > Frank, Why did I know that you would react without even asking any
Thanks for the reply. While I would prefer to comply with the code, as I indicated, this doesn't appear to be an option and still live the way I want to. I had planned to do exactly as you described, but was hoping to find an alternative, code compliant solution. I even sent a message to ELK describing the situation in hopes that it would get them interested in getting the needed UL certification. I really hate investing money in something like a separate pool alarm, just to meet a poorly implemented code, just to have to disconnect it later and replace it with a more workable, but not code compliant, solution. Again, thanks for your input.
There are two strains of thought on this subject, Bill. Some people believe that every swimming pool must have either a child-proof fence surrounding it or at least alarms on all doors and windows leading to the pool area. Others who have no children and who never have children visit may feel that the law is unreasonably strict. Neither is stupid IMO. They just have different beliefs.
I don't know. I do know that there are homes where young children are never around. Without knowinbg the OP's situation I'd be hard put (as would you) to say if his is one of those homes.
That is possible but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt unless and until they give me reason not to believe them.
Do you really think that someone who is determined to get around that law wouldn't do so without having read this thread?
There's always a balance between personal freedom and community good. I understand the reasoning for the law and frankly, I make a lot of money selling pool alarms in my online store. They're a very popular item. Nonetheless, I think the law is poorly written. I'd like to see some flexibility for families without small children. That's not likely to happen.
There are ways that you can combine a UL listed pool alarm with the ELK M1G system. You'd still have at least one of the pool alarm units near the door.
GRI's 289 series has a switched voltage output that can be used to trigger a burglary zone on the ELK-M1G, eliminating the need for duplicate burglary and pool alarm sensors and wiring on the door(s).
There's also a "reset" output that trips when someone pushes the button on the
289. That can be wired to another "zone" (sensing circuit) on the ELK to let the HA system know you want to exit. You could use that to do things like bypassing the security to allow you to access the lanai without disarming the alarm, say when walking the dog at night or whatever.
These are external connections and not modifications to the UL listed pool alarm so the inspector shouldn't have any issues with them.
It could also do other cool things like turn on the pool and lanai lights if you touch the button after dark.
As noted, the M1G carries a UL sticker for a residential alarm. Unfortunately, the procedure for obtaining any UL listing is time consuming and very expensive. Unless Wade believes he can sell a lot more M1G systems by doing so he's unlikely to apply for additional listing.
I understand. I have no small children either. However, we have lots of parties and some of our friends bring little ones so for us the pool alarm is a necessity. There were holes in the original lanai floor to install a pool fence but those things are such an eyesore that we don't want one. I had them paved over when we redid the lanai with paver bricks last year.
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