Re: Help with 7 Circuit Project?

I have an excellent grasp on both X-10 and UPB, I am hired frequently to help dealers troubleshoot either system. My training of dealers required me to understand both systems, in order to teach and troubleshoot problems in the field. You and I arguing symantics is pointless, and is losing the reader.

You are missing the entire point of the post. I was merely explaining to those in the US and Canada that they should seriously take another look at UPB. Of course, UPB will not work in Europe, it is not even compatible with

All manufacturers for liability reasons are recommending couplers, there are no repeaters. PCS has determined only 8% of installations require a coupler, and Manufacturers would rather be right 100% of the time than wrong

You are right the password is merely a method to reduce cross talk between home. the are 256 house codes 256 unit address, and a 4 digit passcode for the system that equates to 64,000 address, and if you throw in the passcode in the mix, you could infer that there is 655 million possible combinations. I would not say it is secure like a wireless network using a 128 bit encryption. As far as homeowner feedback, this is one area where no news is good news. You know if there were problems, they would show up in posts here and everywhere. It is new so we don't have many homeowner testimonials, but no complaints with 18 months of installation has merit worth considering.

I have not fully reviewed Insteon, but my concern would be that it is not supported by any other manufacturer. I use Leviton DHC and Simply Automated UPB switches in my home. Most home automation controllers are supporting UPB and X-10. My concern about Insteon is compatibility with HAI, Elk, Home Logic, and others. I hope it is easy and compatible, my only thoughts about insteon, is "have they improved X-10" are they going to be susceptible to noise like X-10? Granted proper use of filter, couplers, and repeaters nearly always make x10 reliable.

I have enjoyed this discussion, have a nice day.

I'm not arguing semantics. I'm saying flat out that you do not seem to have much knowledge of the topics you are expounding on.

The fact that UPB has been licensed to other manufacturers hasn't done anything to lower the price. X-10 was also available from many manufacturers. Did that make it better?

In this context, your 4 digit password is just as secure as 128-bit encryption. Neither does a damn thing to prevent capture and playback of codes. If "rdjy5roigdpb8gv" floats your boat, it will float your boat no matter who sends it. Rolling codes are reasonably secure but are seldom used for anything other than garage doors and for arming/disarming security systems.

I'm surprised to learn that UPB systems need a paid professi>I have an excellent grasp on both X-10 and UPB, I am hired frequently to

Well we can argue this till we are blue in the face, I may not be the most knowledgeable fellow on this topic but I know enough to keep the conversation going, I know enough to teach professional dealers how to design and install it, and while I may make a typo from 121Khz to 120 KHz, fine. That your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

You are wrong here. When PCS originally shipped the light switches they were selling over $150 retail. They intentionally priced them 25% cheaper than Radio RA. The price is dropping radically if you were paying attention. Simply automated was selling switches retail around $85 a switch. now they sell a 1000watt switch for under $70. UPB is more of a professionally driven product. Programming is more diverse than X-10, and you can do a lot of tricks with UPB that the X-10 switch does not allow. It is not a hobbyist product like X-10.

Other manufacturers did a lot to the X-10 products. I would say a comment like that says you are not as knowledgeable as you pass your self off to be. Take Lightolier, They were the first company to develop and sell a solution to make a professional X-10 installation bullet proof. The compose and the firewall, virtually eliminated noise and signal quality issues, but it wasn't at a cost, the firewall cost upwards of a $1000, and they make the most expensive X-10 light switches around $100 retail. Leviton, brought Intellisense DHC (Decora Home Controls). Intellisense was an AGC circuit deigned battle the noise commonly found in residential homes. Did it work, yes it worked well, but it was not perfect. In my home I have a mix of Leviton and X-10 brand switches. I never have a problem with the Leviton DHC switches. The switches work wonderfully and the X-10 branded switches work when they want to. I dont have an option where the X-10 brands are because I want a non-dimming switch and there is no neutral present. Look at Smarthome, they are making the X-10 switches better by incorporating a dual technology. So yes other manufacturers make it better and cheaper.

Well the point is they decreased the possibility of home to home interference.

Most of the jobs, troubleshooting X-10 is more about not having filters, repeaters and couplers. On both X-10 and UPB jobs, it is usually the installer was not properly trained and did not install the switches correctly.

All of which occured a few years AFTER the X-10 patent expired. Prior to that the other 'brands' that used X-10 technology were assembled on the same assembly lines as those that carried X-10 labels. Aside from the labels, they were identical (except for the CM10A made only for IBM).

Then why claim it's a security feature? If your neighbor is determined to "gaslight" you, it can be done with X-10, UPB or Z-Wave. Of course, the high price of UPB does serve as a deterrent.

And why is it that the same people who complain the most about poor X-10 signal propagation also worry so much about interference from the neighbors? I can understand it in Europe where there may be hundreds of residences sharing a utility stepdown transformer but in N. America it should be easily dealt with.

Brett,

I've read through your article and have a few comments on some excerpted paragraphs:

Most burglaries actually happen in the daytime. The primary concern of most burglars is not to be CAUGHT, nor to enter a house where someone might shoot them or engage them in a confrontation. Here's the first stats I found through Google that confirm the breakdown:

Occurrences Time Value of property stolen

More than twice as much stuff (dollarwise) got stolen during the day in Fairfax than at night, at least during the year of the report. A well-designed lighting system isn't going to be much of a deterrent to the daytime burgling professionals. Get a big honking siren or bell (maybe more than one) and make it clear that you've got a security system in place and operational. Then worry about the lights.

I'd much rather spend the money on good locks and alarm equipment. I've heard of more than one burglar who simply defeated the lights by unscrewing the bulbs when casing the place in the daylight.

When a local neighbor was nearly killed by her demented boyfriend I did a "walk around" her house with a local detective specializing in "shoring up" houses against potential attackers. The first thing out of his mouth was "that shrub must go" in reference to a big bush an attacker could hide behind. Even if it's well-lit, someone could easily hide behind it and not be seen.

If you're going to depend on lighting to be part of a "security scheme" then I'd recommend using something that varies the time a light comes on and off each day. If it's not variable, the local crackhead juvey probably already knows no one's home. I (and the detective) also strongly recommended motion sensored lights. I have them and I know when they flick on, I should take a look outside. I do the same when my neighbors' floods come on late at night.

I would say that the best deterrent a lighting system can provide is to mimic your actual usage patterns when home.

Are you sure it's not more because they are such a pain to install? While it's nice to have a few window sensors you can use to keep windows partially opened and yet still alarmed, I've seen very few alarm companies actually recommend or install individual window sensors.

Now this is an interesting area I wish you had expounded on since I just bought an Omni LT and am wondering exactly how to design the system so that false alarms (now fined heavily in my area) are virtually eliminated. To that end, I hoped from what I had read about the Omni that I could use a lot of conditional logic to evaluate security situations. What I want is a NASA-like control system that has independent logic analysis. To generate a central station alarm, the system has to be CERTAIN that a real security breach has occurred. That means more than one sensor has been tripped and other conditions have been met that indicate it's a real alarm and not just a nearby lightning strike.

This is why I liked the HAI systems. Since I already had X-10 controlling most of my lights, I could use the OmniLT to flash all the house lights when an intrusion has been detected. This is useful for a number of reasons. It's likely to be disorienting to the burglar. Whereas I know my house by feel and can navigate in the dark, flashing lights in an unfamiliar environment is likely to make the burglar want to flee. ALL the lights flashing also doesn't reveal MY position, which is usually going for the Colt Python in the closet. Planning for deliberately hostile intruders became more important after the attempted murder in my neighborhood. Most alarms installers plan for burglaries, not homicidal attacks. The approach to each problem is a bit different.

Why just the porch light? I hope the LT can flash more than one house/unit code!

Agree VERY strongly. Burglars always take a look around first and recording all of the front door interactions is a very, very good idea for a number of reasons. It's why I just bought a DoorFon! The recently sentenced BTK killer might have passed by a house marked with modern day lamb's blood - the CCTV camera.

This is done in my house with X-10's REX. They've done a fairly good job of handling the lights and with the volume turned up, the Robodog is great fun. Panhandlers really don't like houses with dogs. My next project is to take the old MP3 player I have with a broken (and unfixable) battery door and turn it into a real Robodog that's capable of playing more than just one lousy bark (I actually use TWO Robodogs triggered by different sensors - makes a hell of a realistic ruckus). But I dislike the DS10A sensor for a number of reasons and want to graduate to something more reliable very shortly.

These are all great ideas. The problem is the implementation. I've not been impressed by the reliability of most of the front door cam systems I've seen. Since we often have very long power interruptions here (multiple days) I want something that can also function on batteries for a long time. I've got a kludged system built from X-10 electronics and Sony ExView bulletcams, but I'd like something better and something that uses very low standby power.

This is also something I'd like to do. What do you recommend?

-- Bobby G.

Brett wrote (about Dave H.) :

I think Dave was being a bit rhetorical in that "make it better" comment. I suspect he meant that although there are many people involved in selling X-10 (or UPB), sheer vendor numbers didn't make it any better a protocol. Sort of like the old joke "Eat horseshit, a billion flies CAN'T be wrong." Numbers don't have much to do with technical performance.

An unsolicited word to the wise, as well. Check out Dave's contributions to the HA field in Google before you make judgements about what he knows and doesn't know. While I do not mean to diminish your considerable and valuable field experience, I suspect Dave dreams in X-10 pulses. While Dave's style is hard for some to take (and I suspect you're feeling "impugned" at the moment), I'd rather have inaccurate information challenged then to let it go into the archives. Consider yourself "blooded." :-) I hope you both can resolve your differences. Obviously you both bring valuable experience to the table here in CHA.

-- Bobby G.

It's always amazed me that one protocol powerline could send not only the information to turn a switch on or off, but a picture of the switch and video of the room going dark in the time that it takes for another to send less than a kilobyte of data.

I wonder why HomePlug or similar companies haven't crossed over into the realm of HA, given the potential synergy of powerline, PC's and maybe even AV all using the same topology.

-- Bobby G.

I suspect it's because they have visions of $$$$ in their heads, thinking that there will be a bigger market for video streaming, etc. As I understand it, the HomePlugAV spec was held up by the various players jockeying for advantage.

I'm surprised that X-10, with their years of experience manufacturing cheaply in China hasn't done a deal with them or with one of the companies that lost out in the competition for the initial HomePlug chip. I would think that a HomePlug compatible Ethernet module that could repeat old style X-10 over the powerlines would extend their life another decade or so. 3 or

You're going to blow my cultivated curmudgeonly image.

Robert,

I appreciate your counterpoints in this article.

I have not read that statistic before about more break ins during the day than at night. I find that interesting. I will definitely do some more research into this and other reports.

As far as your questions regarding the HAI system, I would be pleased to chat with you offline about ideas and tricks you can do with the HAI system. I have been challanging the dealers I had trained to come up with a task that I could not perform with an HAI system and 3rd party products. Provided those task can be controlled in some way already, for example dont get silly and ask me to make it rain, but I have thought that one thru, and depending on your persepctive I could make it happen (hollywood style).

I agree lighting is not the only aspect but this article was written while I was working for HAI, and the direction was to write an article on ways you could use lighting to make a home safer at night.

To answer a few of your questions you posed:

1. HAI is defaulted to flash one light in a alarm state. You can easily write a 2-3 line program to flash all lights.
2. You can use HAI logic to minimze security concerns like you desire, but for liability reasons, I can discuss this offline with you. On a side note, you may need to consider upgrading you panel to the Omni II or Pro II. The omni LT has only 100 lines of programming, and it sounds like you are going to have fun with the programming. I have an 18 unit job coming up with Omni LT's if you decided you wish to upgrade, I would be willing to work a deal for you, if your deistributor does not want ot exchange it for you.
3. Recommendations on the front door cam on a phone. If i undertsna dthe questin, I have used both the IPAQ 6315 tmobile phone and more recently the Motorola MPX 220. Both are great phones, and will play video from your home via Weblink. Personally I like the MPX-220 better, because it is smaller, but you loose screen size. It is really a preference issue, however the IPAQ did not work well with bluetooth, at least mine (circa August 2004).
4. I monitor eight forums to answer questions on HAI products and programming, when you get closer to programming drop me an email and I will give you some tips and tricks. I will also be producing a training on HAI programming soon as well.

Robert, Thanks again I appreciate your comments. I was slightly offended by his remarks, and I try not to slander anyone, although we all slip at times. I enjoyed Daves remarks and discussions, and I believe I showed I know quite a bit about the subject, albeit not as much as Dave may.

My intent here is to offer my knowledge about HAI and its related technologies. In my 3 years training for HAI, I had to learn great detail about HVAC, Radio Ra, X-10 and UPB to preform my job to my expectations. I strive to never have to say, "I will have to get back to you on that" for any question asked of me in a training class.

"Brett Griffin" wrote in

Thanks. I hope it didn't sound too critical. There were a number of parts where we are in definite agreement.

It surprised me too, when I first came across similar stats. Career burglars don't EVER want to run into occupants, especially in states with liberal gun laws.

I may take you up on that as soon as I get the unit up and running. It's on the to-do list. I'm more of a fan of on-line discussion so that others can benefit from information. Is liability that much of an issue?

Yes - I can certainly understand that perspective.

I promise not to sue you if you help me, if that's what you're worried about. :-)

I've got Adicon's CPU-XA's and HomeSeer to do most of my automation. I bought the LT to replace a cheap Ademco panel I have now, hoping I can reuse most of the sensors already in place. I looked at the II and the Pro II but that was more money than I wanted to spend on my current house. If I like the LT, I'll certainly consider an upgrade when I move to a larger house. I'll definitely do it if I can roll up the things that the CPU-XA does for me now.

That's a very nice gesture. I don't think I'll need to take you up on it this time around. I knew the LT's limitations when I bought it; I just want so basic security with X-10 interoperability to flash lights.

I was asking more about what programs/HW provide the best way of "pushing" that sort of content to my cell phone. I've seen lots of different ways of sending video from the house to the internet or directly to a cell phone. I guess what I'd really like is for the DoorFon to be smart enough to call me when appropriate so I could interact with someone at the front door as if I were home. That would be very, very cool.

I looked around at your site and found the sample training you mentioned but it was an exe file. What's in it? Is it a program, a compressed MPG or what?

-- Bobby G.

"Dave Houston" wrote in message

No chance of that! Brett should consider himself lucky to *get* zinged by you. :-) Having one's hair set afire is good practice. It keeps the t's crossed and the i's dotted. I know I check just about everything I post nowadays in Google because Usenet is not forgiving of misinformation, accidental or otherwise. In this case, Brett's enthusiasm is as obvious as your skepticism. Those are conditions bound to create a little friction. I'm sure Brett's going to ask hard questions of his UPB vendors now and hopefully share what he learns with us.

Your encounter with Brett reminds me of the jail scene from the "Life of Brian:"

(BRIAN wakes up with a smile on his face to find himself being dragged along a cell corridor by TWO GUARDS. The horrible figure of the JAILER spits at him and flings him into a dark damp cell, slamming the iron grate behind him and turning the key hollowly in the lock. BRIAN slumps to the floor. A voice comes out of the darkness behind him.) BEN You LUCKY bastard! BRIAN (spins around and peers into the gloom) Who's that? BEN (In the darkness BRIAN just makes out an emaciated figure, suspended on the wall, with his feet off the ground, by chains round his wrists. This is BEN.) You lucky, lucky bastard. BRIAN What? BEN (with great bitterness) Proper little gaoler's pet, aren't we? BRIAN (ruffled) What do you mean? BEN You must have slipped him a few shekels, eh? BRIAN Slipped him a few shekels!? You saw him spit in my face! BEN Ohh! What wouldn't I give to be spat at in the face! I sometimes hang awake at nights dreaming of being spat in the face. BRIAN Well, it's not exactly friendly, is it? They had me in manacles ... BEN Manacles! Oooh. (his eyes go quite dreamy) My idea of heaven is to be allowed to be put in manacles ... just for a few hours. They must think the sun shines out of your arse, sonny! BRIAN Listen! They beat me up before they threw me in here. BEN Oh yeah? The only day they don't beat me up is on my birthday. BRIAN Oh shut up. BEN Well, your type makes me sick! You come in here, you get treated like Royalty, and everyone outside thinks you're a bloody martyr. BRIAN Oh, lay off me ... I've had a hard time! BEN YOU'VE had a hard time! Listen, sonny! I've been here five years and they only hung me the right way up yesterday! BRIAN All right! All right! BEN I just wish I had half your luck. They must think you're Lord God Almighty! BRIAN What'll they do to me? BEN Oh, you'll probably get away with crucifixion. BRIAN Crucifixion! BEN Yeah, first offence. BRIAN Get away with crucifixion! BEN Best thing the Romans ever did for us. BRIAN (incredulous) What? BEN Oh yeah. If we didn't have crucifixion this country would be in a right bloody mess I tell you. BRIAN (who can stand it no longer) Guard! BEN Nail 'em up I say! BRIAN (dragging himself over to the door) Guard! BEN Nail some sense into them! GUARD (looking through the bars) What do you want? BRIAN I want to be moved to another cell. (GUARD spits in his face.) BRIAN Oh! (he recoils in helpless disgust) BEN Oh ... look at that! Bloody favouritism! GUARD

-- Bobby G.

"Brett Griffin" wrote in

Only slightly? Dave must be losing his touch! :-)

That's a laudable goal. There are some very bright and experienced people here in CHA. I've learned a boatload of HA info from them. Sadly, we've also had some tech reps for some very BIG players come into CHA and make total morons of themselves and the companies they work for. Newcomers probably get more razzing as result of such previous encounters. The tough ones stick it out and are better for it, at least IMHO. Anything that makes someone check their facts before posting potential misinformation is a good thing - eventually!

-- Bobby G.

You'll find similar figures nearly everywhere you look (except from alarm dealers).

I mentioned this here a few years back but I think it's worth repeating. A local (Cincinnati) TV station did a brief series that included interviews with career burglars (then serving sentences in prison). They confirmed that early afternoon was the best time (from their POV) because that was when target houses were most likely to be empty. Alarm systems did not phase them because they were in and out with time to spare before there was any response. The only thing that deterred them was a dog _INSIDE_ the house.

Burglaries of businesses peak during the night for the same reason - that's when they are least likely to be occupied.

This is a pretty good endorsement for a good dog barking device as a burglar deterrent. Robodog scares the heck of deliverymen, too! The enhancements I need are 1) simulation of movement of the dog 2) growling. I think using a cashiered stereo MP3 player as the platform has lots of promise. Add a pair of amplified speakers and I'll bet it has real potential. It might take a trip to the dog pound with a portable DAT recorder to get exactly what I need in growls and barks. I wonder what it would take to shake the door as if a dog was throwing itself against it?

-- Bobby G.

My only concern is discussing your ideas about how to make the system reduce false alarms, to the extent you mentioned, as the programming you will want to do requires programming that, if you dont do it correctly you may have holes in your security system. I would prefer that topic to stay between those who really grasp security and programming, otherwise I would prefer to not suggest other to make changes to the way HAI has setup the security system.

Otherwise, the great thing about HAI (and their sister brands Aegis and OnQ Le Grand) is the ability to self monitor with the system calling you on up to 8 phone numbers and/or central monitoring.

I am not worried about being sued, but if I discuss this topic in depth, I would feel terrible if someone who did not grasp security and programming and tried to change the way HAI does security, and something tragic happened.

Anything else I would be happy to discuss in the forum, lighting, temperature, irrigation, or anything else you can dream up...

As you dive into the Omni, you will find out how easy and advanced it is. While I do not know to what extend you are using the Adicon, the Omni should be able to handle most everything you are doing with Adicon. However anything IR still requires an Ocelot by Adicon. The Omni LT has a maximum of 2 serial ports, 16 light addresses, 24 inputs and 10 outputs (12v triggers). As you expand and move up, the Pro II has a max of 4 serial ports, 256 light addresses, 176 inputs/and 136 outputs. Another cool feature of the Omni is you can mix switch technologies. I have actually demonstrated using an Omni LT, using Radio Ra, and X-10 and ALC (OnQ hardwired switch) simultaneously, and as the end user you have no clue which is which but everything works. On Pro II, you can mix, UPB, X-10, X-10 Extended, X-10 Compose, Radio Ra, ALC, HAI Lighting Control, and 3 other lighting technologies via a serial cable, literally all connected to the same Omni Pro II. As you dive deeper into the Omni systems, there is not much you cannot do, and almost nothing you cannot do with third party products.

HAI manufactures a software called weblink. It resides on a PC in the home, and it is a web server. It will push status and control to a phone or web browser. It will also send video from 1 USB camera, or up to 40 modulated TV channels(cameras). However it will only show one camera/channel at any one time. The software is a very very basic DVR. You can write a program to record 1 channel based on an event in the home. It is recorded on the PC's hardrive, so keep that in mind for security.

The doorphone can be connected to the HAI via a door chime interface. You than write a program based on the press of the doorbell. It would require a program in the omni and a program in the Weblink software.

It is a compressed file made using Macromedia Captivate. The program creates the movie and compresses it for sending over the internet. It is still 20 mb, it is not a Mpeg, but a proprietary format Macromedia uses. The cool thing about Captivate it allows me to create interactive trainings. I basically instruct, and the viewer has to click thru, so far the feedback is everyone like the interaction with the training.

I wonder if you get a bass shaker for shake the door?

The ASCII strings in the CPU-XA were originally intended for use with the Omni using the HAI ascii protocol (Pro-Link) which the user can define. Is this still available with the LT?