Open Source

There are some 160-180 companies manufacturing Z-Wave products, or that at least joined the alliance.

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am not sure X-10 ever had that many, if they bothered to track them.

The SDK fee includes hardware, engineer's support, and some other items. Obviously a lot of other companies find more value in it than you do, which is fine - your decision.

The reason a Z-Wave device doesn't transmit its exact status when it is turned on is due to a Lutron patent - has nothing to do with any technical inability. This is worse for the industry than charging for an SDK.

Z-Wave did not want to reach the dock far from the house because the goal was low power consumption so you could create battery operated devices. They have options to change the radio power, but do not have designs on allowing it to go more than 100 feet nominally. Instead, buy a $10 Z-Wave device and put it in between the house and the dock to bridge the gap, or buy an Ethernet Z-Wave interface and put it in the dock house and let your WiFi reach it instead.

GRHS

Reply to
GRHSTechnologies
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Yeah, ok, "stick a device in the middle."

Nice idea, but for one small problem - now you have to bury a wire out there "in the middle" and put something there that is a ZWave device.

Suddenly that nice "reasonably inexpensive" job turns into one where you need Mr. Electrician to come in, Mr. Trencher to come in, holes need to be made in the house to bring wire out from the panelboard, etc.

Not exactly practical in a lot of cases eh?

Reply to
Karl Denninger

"in the middle" and put something there that is a

Mr. Electrician to come in, Mr. Trencher to come in,

There are two types of HA enthusiasts -- DIYers and those who hire pros. Trenching and running buried cable is a snap unless your yard is asphalt or granite. However, in many coses even that isn't needed (see below).

It depends on what you consider a lot of cases. You have a dock that is located a considerable distance from your home. Most folks don't. In fact, I'd venture to say that the vast majority of homes don't have docks, let alone ones that far away. I haven't seen your yard but I have friends and one family member with homes with docks on deep water canals. All have power at the docks (you kind of have to have it unless your boat is muscle powered) and lighted walkways leading down. In such cases the only thing that would be needed to bring Z-Wave to the dock is a switched power outlet partway down.

What it all boils down to, Karl, is personal preference. You're not interested in marketing your product. Most providers in the industry, including myself are. You're not interested in spending money on Z-Wave's SDK. Others are. No problem. There's room for you and for them. If their approach is of no interest whatsoever to you that should be the end of it. But if not having the SDK is such a concern as to elicit a slew of FY's, perhaps you should reconsider your purchasing decision. If it were me and I wanted to make my app profitable (I know, you said you don't care about that) I'd hop on the Z-Wave bandwagon because I believe it's got an excellent chance of success.

Oh, well. I think we've pretty well beaten this horse. :^)

Reply to
Robert L Bass

One more kick at the cat, eh? One more chance to post your sig line...

Reply to
Frank Olson

Did you not see the bit about Z-Wave being designed for low-power for the purpose of having BATTERY operated devices?

And the suggestion of using an Ethernet Z-Wave interface was to put it at the dock, with nothing in between, and let WiFi take care of the transmission over the distance, assuming you have the ability to go that distance with WiFi.

Reply to
GRHSTechnologies

BATTERY operated devices eh?

Ok, point taken. How about all the LINE POWERED devices? You know, like wall switches and outlets?

They certainly don't need to be restricted to THIRTY FEET of range in a typical home, right?

A Wifi Repeater at the dock for the explicit purpose of repeating ZWave?

That's called a HACK.

Reply to
Karl Denninger

You do not understand - every Z-Wave node is a repeater for the network, so the act of simply placing a Z-Wave node/device in the path, you have thus extended the network range. So if your dock was over 100' away, you could place any Z-Wave device 60-70' away from the house toward the dock, and now the devices (line powered switches and outlets) in the dock area would be controllable.

pical home, right?

Right - the nominal range is 100', and your mileage will vary based upon metal obstructions in the walls, etc. In most homes, there are zero or just a few nodes that cannot communicate directly with every other node and must route through another one. However, without routing the round trip time is around 80ms compared to X-10's 666ms for one way, so even if it routes and takes a little longer, it is still by far better than most if not all powerline technologies.

Not if it is for an Ethernet Z-Wave interface. If you wanted to use a laptop computer with a WiFi adapter at the end of your dock, you might have to install a WiFi repeater, and so this is no different. In the case of WiFi, you can often remove the external antenna from your router or access point and replace it with a long-range one to get the WiFi to reach the dock without a repeater. Because Z-Wave devices are switches, motion detectors, etc. and do not have external antennas, you cannot do this. So, if you have a wireless technology that can reach the dock with a long range/high gain antenna, why not use it to extend your control network that far? Ethernet Z-Wave interfaces are how you can control the Z-Wave devices in your vacation home on the other side of the country using your remote controls and home automation software back in your regular home. Definitely not a hack

- it's called technology!

Reply to
GRHSTechnologies

That is not true.

Battery operated devices that are sleeping do not operate as repeaters. Specifically, PIRs do not.

Line-powered devices do, but line powered devices don't need to be power-limited to 30'.

The point here is that 30' is woefully inadequate and also somewhat optimistic in many circumstances (especially if the switch is inside and the next "node" is beyond a brick or other exterior facing, with several worse than brick (e.g. aluminum siding is a quite-effective shield at

900Mhz!)

typical home, right?

Correct; Zwave inside the house works fine. The problems arise when you want to do something like have a sensor in the garage (without a node in the middle) - that one is easily solved, but the dock or Gazebo is another matter.

I'm well aware of the options; I am saying that this is a particularly stupid workaround to need when most homes will have a plethora of line-powered ZWave devices (e.g. wall switches and wall controllers), all of which have access to 120V and have no reason to be running a power level that limits range to 30'.

Reply to
Karl Denninger

in many circumstances...

You're wrong on this one, Karl. There are Z-Wave installations in homes well over 7,000 sf in area. Properly planned, you can do almost any size home.

other exterior facing, with several worse than brick

Like all other RF technologies, Z-Wave installations need to deal with reflections, obstructions, etc. Fortunately, the Z-Wave mesh network allows signals to automatically find another path if one is blocked. Are there locations where Z-Wave simply won't do the job? Certainly, but they are far fewer than you might imagine.

Also, please note that 30' is the *suggested* range between nodes in the average home. It is far from the functional limit.

to do something like have a sensor in the garage

Gazebo is another matter...

That one's not so tough either. PLace a Z-Wave device on the outside of the house under the eaves and facing the dock. You should be good for 100' or so.

workaround to need when most homes will have a

controllers), all of which have access to 120V and have no

You say it's a "stupid workaround" but it is a method that will work. You go on the refer to "most homes" but honestly, do you believe that most homes have a dock and that most docks are 100' or more from the home, let alone that there's a crying need to automate everything, including the dock lights? While we're at it, most of the homes I've seen that do have docks have a switch up by the back door of the house to turn on the dock and path lights. In those cases the solution is obvious. The point is that your situation, while not unique, is relatively rare. For every prospective home automation project with a dock or outbuilding 100' away there are likely hundreds that don't have such needs. Characterizing this situation as a major flaw for Z-Wave is a bit of a stretch. It almost sounds like sour grapes. "They won't give me their SDK. Well, I didn't want their stinking SDK anyway. So there." I realise you're not the same as our resident everything-not-X10-basher, but really Karl, I think you're off base on this.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Well Karl, you get out of it what you put into it. If it's garbage, get a mirror and you'll see who's loused it up.

Reply to
Bill Kearney

Hi Karl,

I haven't looked at your site yet, as I'm not a *nix user, but have you by any chance documented your reverse engineering for the zwave protocol? I am an inveterate code tinkerer, and would love to play with my own control software for my zwave network, but a) I don't really do .net, so controlthink's SDK is not for me, and b) it's SO not worth it to buy the zensys SDK.

Reply to
blaise

Are you sure you want to continue this discussion in public? There are ASA folks who have often tried to wreck this newsgroup who would think nothing of forwarding the thread to Zensys in an attempt to cause you legal difficulties.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Yeah right, Bozo. You're the only one who actually *has* gone real life with folks you don't like on Usenet.

Reply to
G. Morgan

I wasn't going to name names but it was you and Frank Olson I was referring to.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Robert "Fatass" Bass whose social security number is "144-44-1945" burped:

No shit basswipe - but you're wrong and you're lying again. YOU are the only one who considers going RL as a tactic to silence your detractors.

Reply to
George Bushie

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