New Home Construction

Hey guys,

I have been lurking in these groups for a while. Thanks so much for all the interesting answers and thoughts, definitely has given me a lot to think about. I am about to start building a new townhouse on a research campus here in north carolina. I am interested in what advice you guys might have particularly for HD Video distribution. I have worked up an initial set of functional specifications to send to the installer for quotes. I figured that the most important thing is for me to get the infrastruture wired in and then I can work with the electronic components at a later date (if cost is limiting). I was wondering what strategies you all might use to distribute HD video and digital audio to any of about 6 rooms from a several HD sources rack-mounted in a central location. There seem to be SO many options for video and audio distribution and I am sort of ambivalent about the right way to go. Thanks a lot for any suggestions!

Reply to
pebrinic
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Is ambivalence a bad thing in this case? Well... yes and no.

------------------------------------- Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems

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Reply to
Dean Roddey

  • Assume that you need cables to do it ;), and cable technology improves over time. So get tubes where you can easily insert cables. And put it in a star configuration so you can reconnect quick.
  • You may want to separate mains wireing from signal cableing due safety and interference issues. Possible separate tube for firealarm aswell.
  • Other than that I think shielded cat.5e should be fullfill most needs. At least for now.
  • Check: comp.dcom.cabling
Reply to
pbdelete

Firewire appears to me the natural way to go. What options are you thinking of? I got the impression you've already made up your mind and just want confirmation.

Reply to
speeder

Thanks for the responses! Marc, as far as budget, the house is 1500 sqft total divided into 4 floors. I am trying to get the system in place for about 15k could go as high as 20 if it was worth it. My highest priority is to get the right kind of cabling intrafstructure in places, so if the cost of the electronics comes too high, I may just go for a 2 or 4 zone system initially and then upgrade the electronics as needed.

I _definitely_ will have everything conduit-run with pull-lines. So, hopefully, I will never have to fish cables behind the wall without them.

I am looking for recommendations both for the electronics-side in the distribution closet and for the wiring.

I am sure that I would like to pipe HD video to at least two rooms (as many as 6 would be great in the future). I have seen a variety of distribution methods for HD, some use converters to run DVI/HDMI over twisted pair ethernet, some actually use a swtiched IP-based network. It seems to me that the best way for me to handle it would just to run

3-4 drops of cat 5e or cat 6 to each room where i would like video? That would give me the flexibility of using any converters at each end and hopefully build a completely IP-based system. Do you guys have any recommendations for IP-based video systems that will get HD quality or is that still not very mature?

Dave and speeder, I liked your idea about firewire over ethernet, insteresting! Do you guys find that a lot of home use that for their electronics systems? Also, is that enough bandwidth for HD? Also, as far as interference is concerned, is a powerline firewall such as the Compose PLC a necessity in a townhouse enviroment? That would be more a question for the automation system that we would install, if that would go over powerlines such as X10, right?

Sorry, for all the questions, I am pretty new with a lot of this, seems very interesting, but also very confusing! Thanks for all your responses!!

-Paul

Reply to
pebrinic

I'm not at all clear on what you are asking. Do you want recommendations for how to wire the system or are you asking for recommendations for specific hardware to go in your rack and in the 6 rooms?

IEEE-1394b (current Firewire version) can handle 100Mbps over CAT5 with a maximum length of 100 meters.

HomePlug AV (HPAV) can do 200Mbps over the powerline. The standard has been approved and hardware should appear shortly.

There are 5-6 manufacturers offering proprietary (and non-interoperable) wireless systems rated at 108Mbps although the IEEE-802.11n standard is unlikely to be approved until 2006.

I think all need to be derated to about 75-80% of the raw rate for actual data throughput. This still leaves HomePlug AV as the fastest but I don't know how bandwidth might be affected by multiple HPAV townhouses sharing a utility transformer. There may also be bandwidth and/or interference problems with multiple townhouses using wireless systems.

Reply to
Dave Houston

First question needs to be "What is your budget for this? "

Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc F Hult

I have no idea how widespread Firewire home networks are. I doubt there's any way to determine that short of commissioning a poll.

Check the 1394 Trade Association for details on Firewire.

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I don't know whether the Compose firewall will block HPAV which uses carriers in the 2-28MHz range. You might ask that of...

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The technical details are here...

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All three of the technologies I mentioned claim HD video capability. Intellon has demonstrated multiple, simultaneous HD video streams at recent trade shows.

Reply to
Dave Houston

And demos often have nothing to do with actual ship dates. Sad to say but home automation vendors (not just intellon) are woefully BAD at actually delivering anything they claim in press releases, let alone at trade shows.

Reply to
wkearney99

Intellon seems to be meeting their projections.

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Reply to
Dave Houston

I misread this in my first response.

If you use X-10 or other powerline based automation you _may_ need a whole house filter that blocks powerline signals from entering or leaving your premises. The details will depend on the system you choose and whether or not any neighbors on the same power distribution transformer use similar technology.

None of the powerline filters will block RF signals so you'll need to consider systems that have methods for determining the source of RF signals.

Currently available technology uses carriers below 400kHz which are far below the carriers used by HomePlug.

Reply to
Dave Houston

Good ;-) You will likely also have responses suggesting use of RF and powerline distribution that is jist 'round the corner ...

My suggestion is that you think hard about where in each room you want AV/computer information and run a pair of CAT5e and a pair of RG6 to that location *and* to whatever closet is in the room. The closet wiring is your future-proofing and reduces "wall acne". You can inconspicuously add hubs and switches in there and use the home-runned wiring to it elsewhere in the room should you need to in the future.

Fishing wire in a US stick-built house is not as hard as it would seem. So running everything in conduit is probably not worth it. But do make a conduit/chase from the basement to the attic so (assuming a 2-story house with basement and attic), you can get to the first floor rooms from the basement and the second floor from the attic. A fiber cable in that chase would not be a bad idea. I wish I had done so.

Perhaps the biggest conundrum is whole-house audio because there is a plethora of incompatible generic and proprietary choices.

Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc F Hult

I doubt it will do any good but let me try to correct your mischaracterization of the companies involved and of the current state of the technology.

Neither Intellon nor most other members of the HomePlug Alliance are "home automation vendors". They are in the networking market. Intellon and others supply chipsets that companies like Linksys, NetGear, D-Link, etc. use to build powerline network adapters.

There are already companies that sell 85Mbps powerline adapters (based on HomePlug 1.0 +Turbo Codes) for TCP/IP and for audio streaming (up to 4 channels of 128kbps quality audio.

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The ST&T video cameras over powerline might be attractive to some here who have bemoaned the difficulty of running coax and power to external video cameras.

For those who are unfamiliar with Turbo Codes...

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Reply to
Dave Houston

I'll second this recommendation and note that the riser should be as large as you can accomodate. A 4" conduit would be good. I ran a 3" and filled it much quicker than expected. Either a larger one or a pair of them would be a VERY good idea.

As Marc points out it's really not all that hard to fish a wire up/down a wall in most modern US homes. The wall cavities are generally pretty easy to get through. Putting a hard conduit in the room itself locks you into running the wires to THAT location. As in, if you put it down at outlet level you're screwed for entrance area keypads. Likewise, if you just ran it to the entrance area keypad you'd be stuck for PC, telco or ethernet hookups. Granted, you can generally be sure that something setup near the door will always be 'useful' but it's hard to predict where on the other walls you'd want things placed.

For 1st floor rooms if you can get to the floor below via the space in the joists you're set. For 2nd floor rooms you can usually go up to the attic space. But if you've got spaces that aren't going to be accessible then some creativity is in order. Either by simply knowing the 'run' of the joists (front/back or right/left) or having access panels installed in places that will be known trouble spots. As in, the closet under the stairs. If you really know how the rooms will be used the most difficult thing to wire is ceiling speakers. Having wire installed for them ahead of time, and fished to the entrance keypad area will save you a lot of trouble. Most audio distribution systems these days suggest pulling the speaker wire to the keypad and then back to the central amp (when used). This way you only run a single 4-conductor home run instead of two 2-conductor speaker wires. Just splice them in the keypad junction box (eurostyle terminal strips are good for this).

If you've not already hired one, seriously consider paying a local high-end audio shop for a placement plan for in-room speakers. They generally have a bit more experience in the guess-work of placing them in the right locations.

Reply to
wkearney99

Agreed. Even retrofitting a multistory home is usually not difficult if the construction is standard "platform" (aka "Western") framing. When installing an alarm or home automation system keypads and/or inside siren on a second floor you can use the wall opening as a reach-in point to drill down from one floor to the next. This is a convenient way to create a wiring chase from attic to basement if you select a location on the main load bearing wall.

Also agreed. I prefer to run two or more conduits. One is for 110/220 Volt cables. A 2" run should be sufficient for small to mid-size homes. Go with

3" if the home is over 3000 SF. Another run is for alarm/automation cabling. Check the manufacturer's instructions *before* you install the conduit. Some systems don't allow the keypad and expansion device cables to be run in the same conduit as sensor (zone) wiring. A third run should be included for future audio/video cabling. These services should generally be kept clear of alarm/automation cables as well as 110/220VAC cables.

Outside walls in modern homes are usually filled with Fiberglas insulation. It's easy to get past the stuff without binding up the drill bit if you wiggle the shaft around a bit before drilling through the bottom plate to the basement. INside walls, other than those surrounding the bathrooms, are usually uninsulated so they're even easier to fish.

When installing mud rings in hollow walls, I like to tape a dental mirror to the side of a Maglight flashlight. This allows me to view the inside of the wall cavity. Also, when installing anything in a second floor wall you can stick the Maglight in the hole and leave it on while you go to the attic. Drill down through the top of the wall using a 3/4" paddle bit (aka "spade bit" or "speed bore"). If you can see the light inside the hole you're in the right place.

Furthermore, it may be handy to run conduit to junction boxes for certain applications, but I prefer to use mud rings for low voltage work. These make it much easier to fit box-filling devices like volume controls and heavilt populated multi-service outlet plates without jamming the cables into a tight box -- a major no-no for data cabling.

Under-stair closets make handy places to run alarm cabling, especially in the "raised ranch" homes popular in southern New England. Another place that can be useful for retrofitting cable is the "wet wall" (plumbing chase) to a second floor bathroom. On older homes things can be more complicated, but there is almost always a place where you can pull cables from level to level.

Here's a handy method I've used on hundreds of first floor ceiling speaker installations over the years. Place the speakers within a foot or two of an inside bearing wall. The joists will almost invariably run perpendicular to the bearing wall. The cutout for 8" diameter speakers will easily accomodate your forearm and a right-angle cordless drill (available at HD or

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Using a 3/4" paddle bit, drill down into the top of the bearing wall. Drop enough cable in the wall to go about 2' past the floor level. Measure the horizontal distance from the cable drop to a nearby outlet or side wall. In the basement measure the distance over from the nearby wall or the 110VAC cable supplying the outlet and drill up into the wall with the paddle bit. You can easily reach into the wall cavity with a fish tape or bent coat hanger to pull the cable down to the basement. Have someone on the mail level feed the speaker wire into the opening so it doesn't mess up the sheetrock as you draw more out in the basement.

Another poster once expressed concern about using a paddle bit to drill through a wall. Note that this can easily and safely be accomplished if you do the following. Be sure you're standing on a firm surface -- not leaning sideways off your ladder when drilling. Drill at a moderate speed and do not push on the drill. Let the bit do the cutting. When the bit starts to come throuogh the other side of the wood it can bind if you're drilling at an angle *and* pressing hard on the drill. By using light pressure and allowing the bit to do the job you will avoid problems. Even if you do bind the bit, unless you're using a really powerful drill you won't hurt yourself.

I prefer to do it slightly differently. Run 14/4 from the amp to the volume control location (preferably a single or double-gang mud ring). Leave an extra loop of 18-24" in the wall and continue the cable over to the speakers. Along with the speaker cable I like to pull a CAT5 cable and a piece of 22/2, stranded, shielded cable for control and IR. Leave 18-24" of extra CAT5 at the volume control location so you can connect a control system if you decide to use such at a later time. Leave a similar service loop in the shielded cable and continue it over to one of the wall or cailing speaker locations. It doesn't matter whether you go to the left or right speaker but be consistent from room to room. This will allow you to install an IR receiver behind the grill of the speaker (really slick IMO).

On this I partly agree and partly disagree. If you know the furniture layout in advance it's easy to select stereo speaker locations for almost any room. If you're doing a home theater and the room is a complex shape, go ahead and hire a pro to lay it out. He might even give you a good price on pre-wiring the place.

By the way, do NOT allow a hifi salesman to spec the cables. Buy the cable online or at an electrical supply house. You'll end up spending a "monstrous" amount of money on useless nonsense if you get it from most stereo stores.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Agreed.

There are knockouts for the purpose of running cable through metal studs. There are readily available bushings to fit the standardized KO's.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Although conduit throughout the house is probably not a "solution" to the wiring issue (and it does add expense), there are some situations that do benefit from conduit:

  1. Rooms with cathedral ceilings on slabs -- very common in California.
  2. In and around metal studs.
  3. Masonry walls
  4. "Feed" locations strategically placed for rooms that would require long runs of "fishing" to get to.

Running conduit to a few extra low-voltage "boxes" in these situations makes it fairly easy to fish up to keypad height (or down to outlet height).

wkearney99 wrote:

Reply to
Mitch

Mitch replied to Robert B:

I second Mitch's motion. If the bushings get knocked off by accident, a hard pull can skin a lot of insulation off.

Conduit. The wire goes in one end, it's almost *got* to come out the other and not turn 90 degrees somewhere inside the wall and come spewing out some other than intended hole. It's *so* cheap compared to the )*&#$*&$# frustration that's involved when the "knockouts turn bad" that I can't see doing it any other way anymore. At least for straight vertical runs.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

"Robert L Bass" wrote in

I just bought a "snake" cam that feeds into a portable LCD TV to handle wall "scanning" - the optics and CCD sensor are at the end of a flexible stalk and the electronics is in a box down stream. Add just a single bright white LED and you've got a neat setup.

I saw a NatGeo videographer use a similar rig to look for larger than tarantula-sized spiders in South America. He would poke the camera head down various spider holes until he found a winner (which usually attacked the camera with great ferocity). I figured, if it worked for him, it would be the perfect think to look down into wall cavities.

Wear *good* eye protection too. Those chips will fly everywhere as well as all the in-wall dirt loosened by the vibration.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Trying to fish through the knockouts is less than fun. I stand by my recommendation for conduit in metal studs ;-)

Reply to
Mitch

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