Need help for Engineering Management project

SDM is a trade magazine with no subscription fee. Care to guess who pays for it? That said, I read SDM as soon as it comes to my door each month. There are always articles on new products which I often add to my websites.

The lists only indicate the number of clients they monitor. and the revenue they have. It says nothing about quality (or lack thereof). Furthermore, no one verifies the data. SDM accepts whatever the companies say.

There are two "flavors" of ADT. First is ADT corporate which usually does good work. They have the muscle and skill to handle jobs most competitors can't do. By and large their installations are very professional.

Then there are the so-called ADT "authorized dealers." These are independent contractors who use ADT's name while installing mostly crap. Thet advertise "free" systems but to obtain the free system the homeowner must sign a multi-year monitoring agreement at two, three or more times the going rate. The contracts renew automatically unless cancelled

30 to 90 days (depends on the dealer) before expiration. Getting out of it is only slightly more difficult than breaching a vontract with Lucifer.

Many of these companies have been sued by attorneys general in various states, including Florida where I live, for false and misleading advertising. The ads are illegal here yet numerous "authorized dealers" still use them.

To make matters worse, almost invariably the systems sold by these dealers are so poorly designed and installed that they offer little or no protection.

Sadly, ADT did the math a few decades ago and realized that there is far more profit to be had by installing tiny, nearly useless systems in a couple of hours than by designing and properly installing comprehensive security. The result is an industry driven entirely by price with reckless disregard for the security of the clients who depend on it.

There are still good, honest dealers in the security industry. I like to believe that most are decent people who want to give fair value for a fair price. The problem is that greedy corporate giants have made it very difficult for all but the smallest independent dealers to succeed offering anything remotely resembling real security.

Reply to
Robert L Bass
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Ok, let's see your numbers on the breakdown.

OK, let's see your numbers on breakdown. (-:

That 1 million number was residential-only. I believe, though, the commercial numbers are quite similar.

I thought it was all UL certified ADT-branded panelsr. Mine panel's pretty sturdy and so was the one that preceded it.

Seems to me you're now supporting what I said a few messages back:

although you took great exception with it as applied to PDFs. Flip!

So? MS engaged in bundling contracts that propelled them to the top of the heap. That's just business. Try canceling some cell phone contracts without penalty or difficulty. Or unsubscribing from AOL - they've signed consent decrees to stop the renewal scams. You'd think if ADT were so evil and incompetent, police departments would refuse to deal with their emergency calls. Yet both the cops and the ADT guys come like a shot when my ADT alarm goes off. Only once did it go off when it wasn't supposed to because of a too-sensitive PIR in the very beginning, right after the initial installation. They fixed that free as well as the change to 10 digit numbers, which took them two tries to get right.

And yet they have more customers than all the others combined, it seems. Why do you think people put up with such horrible service? Why do insurance companies still give ADT customers breaks on rates if they are such failures? Are you sure your previous and perhaps current competitive position with them hasn't colored your opinion?

If ADT were truly engaged in a nationwide campaign involving "reckless disregard" (a very serious legal charge, BTW, because it opens the door for punitive damages) there would be evidence of suits galore. I couldn't find any cases against ADT that made such an allegation but I didn't look very hard. I am sure with 1,000,000 customers that they have been sued and charged with reckless disregard. You're in business. You know you can't make everyone happy all the time.

The success of ADT leads me to believe the people look for a well-established name when selecting a security system. I also believe, that by experience, they do as little to disrupt a house as possible when installing a system because it's cheaper and most customers like it that way. They sent two young men to put in my system and they did a credible job. ADT always responds to my alarms, as do the police. Could they have done better? Sure. But they did well enough.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

I'm not dispouting the numbers -- only commenting that they have not been verified.

Is there an echo in here?

Absolutely not.

Wrong. I said that your statement to that effect does not prove the widely used item is *not* good. Here again, I'm not saying that ADT's success is an indication they're bad. I outlined several reasons why their dealer program is rife with problems.

In the case of these ADT authorized dealers, it was more than "just business." Courts in numerous states found it was crooked business.

A bit behind the news, are we?

With increasing frequency that is precisely what has been happening. Police departments all over the country are starting to demand "verification" that a burglary is actually happening before they send an officer. Many departments refuse to respond at all after the ridiculous number of false alarms they get from these poorly installed systems being used by poorly trained owners.

Uh-huh, sure.

McDonalds sells more meals than all the good restaurants in the country combined. Do you think their food is as good as the rest?

Radio Shack sells more electronics than any chain store in the country. Would you order an alarm from them?

Once they've signed up they're stuck. I get calls every other day from angry ex-clients of these authorized dealers.

Insurance companies which offer discounts for alarms don't discriminate based on who did the job. In fact, most companies that offer a discount will even extend it to DIYers who install their own security systems. Most of my customers apply for and receive discounts.

Yes. In fact, I have often stated that I believe ADT *corporate* is a good player.

Perhaps you need to read more than one issue of SDM. Send me your snail mail address and I'll sign you up for free subscriptions to SDM, Security Sales and several other trade rags from the industry. Meanwhile, here are a few interesting links:

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Here's one without a URL: "Spengler v. ADT... the plaintiff had entered into a contract for a system protecting his disabled mother. She activated the system in distress and ADT dispatched to the wrong address. The woman died." ADT's lawyer, when interviewed on the subject by one of the industry magazines responded, "I love this case."

Next case: This one is from Security Sales & ]Integration magazine... "Lawsuit Claims ADT Stole Customers From Dealers" SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. ? An alarm contractor is claiming ADT Security Services stole its customers while it was an ADT Authorized Dealer. First Protection Inc. of Scottsdale, Ariz., has sued ADT, saying the division of Tyco cancelled existing contracts with First Protection customers, re-signed the contracts with the customer directly and then charged First Protection for the cancelled accounts. The suit was filed on Sept. 15 in the Maricopa County, Ariz., Superior Court. "

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"The Attorney General?s investigation revealed that over 1,300 ADT customers had security systems that used similar [faulty] radio transmitters."

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"From: Stephen P Scott, CPA... RE: ADT Security, St. Louis, MO - told not responsible to move system to new address, despite this obligation by ADT being in writing from an authorized dealer - told must fulfill rest of 3 year monitoring contract despite no longer living at the monitoring address"

Missouri's attorney general has filed suit against ADT for its illegal telemarketing campaign.

Florida's AG has fined "authorized dealers"... AG Urges Caution When Entering Contracts For Security Systems The AG's public warning states: "TALLAHASSEE -- Floridians who turn to home security systems for added protection of life and property should beware of dishonest tactics that might be used to market those systems, says Attorney General Bob Butterworth." "Consumers hoping to protect themselves from burglars and other intruders can fall prey to another kind of threat -- deceptive sales pitches," Butterworth said." "In recent weeks, the attorney general has taken action against two companies for deceptively marketing home security systems through bogus 'free' offers."

Yes, that is true. Many of them call a competing alarm company later, after they've had enough of the "authorized dealers's" nonsense. I get a lot of calls from DIYers who want to rip out their ADT panels and replace them with something they can use.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Discounting kids looking to shovel snow, candidates for office or their volunteers, and evangelists, the last door-to-door salesman that knocked on our front door was from ADT (or so he said).

He was pretty pushy - questioning whether our security signs actually meant that we had monitoring. It was as if he thought that he could confuse me long enough to get his foot in the door.

I told him to smile into the cameras and he seemed taken aback when he saw the two big vandal-resistant domes -- but it might jist have been that his neck tie was clipped on *way* too tight ...

...Marc Marc_F_Hult

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Reply to
Marc_F_Hult

And you think calling someone a liar is a *good* business practice? I have far less reason to defend ADT than you have to attack them since you competed against them. I think people can make that credibility judgement for themselves.

As for all the times you've complained about Dave's analysis of Z-wave as being without experience, you seem to be doing the same damn thing. I have an ADT system. You don't. How on earth do you expect anyone to believe

*you* know how they have responded to *my* alarms? It's clear you don't like them. It's clear that you once competed with them. And now it's clear you're dumping crap on them. Non-experiential crap that you so roundly criticize others for posting when it suits you.

Oy. What color is that kettle, mister pot?

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

I apologize.

Perhaps. However, I've seen the work that many of the so-called authorized dealers do. Most of the time the installations were poorly done using the cheapest hardware available. It is commonplace for them to take "shortcuts" with security just to get the job done as fast as possible.

They're actually very helpful to my business. I get calls from lots of ex-ADT customers looking to buy a system and DIY rather than keep paying triple rate for shoddy service and slow response. They are notorious for taking as much as an hour to call the police and sometimes never calling at all.

Indeed.

Not so. During the 24 years I ran a small alarm company I personally *replaced* scads of ADT systems. My online business has sold systems to hundreds of ex-ADT customers. You have had _one_ good experience so that makes you a very fortunate person.

I wouldn't consider hiring an ADT authorized dealer if the system was free and the monitoring was $1 a month.

I don't. I do know how they've responded to countless others and the record is pretty dismal.

Let us be very clear. I have nothing against ADT _corporate_ security. I've often spoken well of them. I resent the awful things that the ADT authorized dealers have done to my industry.

They really had no impact on me. When I bid against them I almost invariably won because I offered (and still do) comprehensive protection. They don't. Their reps would tell the customer that two door sensors and a motion detector were all they needed for a 3,500 sf home. Their presentations typically lasted 25-35 minutes. I would go through the entire home explaining how we would wire every accessible opening, back that up with glass break and motion detection.

ADT offered smoke detection only if the client asked for it. I would write it into every bid as a selectable option. When ADT did include smokes, they almost never did more than one on the main floor and one outside the bedrooms. I offered smokes in each bedroom, outside the bedrooms, at the top of each stairs and on every level plus heat detectors in the garage, attic and furnace rooms.

My average sales call took a couple of hours but I closed a higher percentage than any rep I know. Online I do something analagous. I spend time finding out what needs protection and sugggest a comprehensive plan. I'm still beating the 2-doors-and-1-motion-detector guys hands down.

Actually, they have dumped crap on my industry. The push for "free" systems which really end up costing the consumer several times as much as a real security system has made the alarm industry a laughingstock among police and fire departments. The proliferation of cheap, poorly installed systems has created a nightmare of repeated false alarms which cost end users and police financially and waste police time, exposing people with real emergencies to greater risk.

You have no idea how much experience I have but I can assure you I know a lot more about my industry than you've learned with one security system.

Oy vey iz mir! Its black.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

I've noticed that. It's really interesting how the Internet has been instrumental in increasing the subject knowledge of the people I deal with (for instance). From fire alarms, access control, CCTV, home automation and burglar alarms the information out there is simply phenomenal. Most have made up their minds what they want in the way of equipment long before they get around to actually contacting a company for a quote. And "price" isn't the main deciding factor either.

Reply to
Frank Olson

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