Technically incompetent Yes I would agree (Finally we agree on something). But I'm in constant commication with very technically competant engineers in THEIR field. I answered your questions about Zwave that NoOne else could. Not myself but by a person who IS very competant to speak about Zwave as he designed it. When other dealers ignored your questions. Illiterate well prove it to me.
People have complained about Zwave just as they have about x10 and UPB. They all have issues.
I speak from first hand expirence! I actually would hope they buy UPB as the profit margin is greater as Zwave is close to X10 margin..
I'm still waiting for your Very Competent information on this baseless statement about Allied with Homeseer. But then again I'm a Homeseer User and not compentent to speak about Homeseer or Zwave!
Very much agreed just as any new technology. The only reason I'm not as concerned about longevity is because of the several major backers but this could easily change.
Just as stated in several converstation all of them are up in the air and who is going to be the biggest player is still unkown. The best product (insert your own opinion) may not win.
Don't get me wrong I'm not against UPB at all, it's great and everyone of my customers are happy with it.
Zwave on the other hand had issues with Dimmers blowing when the bulb went out and alot of confusion with the remotes.
--------------------------------------- Brian Dye snipped-for-privacy@tech-home.com
Being illiterate I can't find any information confirming this. My most recent reviews shows it's unclear as to what it may interfer with. I would be happy to read (Well actually have the computer read it to me as I'm illiterate) anything you can point me to regarding this. I know the frequency's of them but would like first hand information saying it doesn't interfer before I change my stance.
No one is an expert on everything. Your willingness to go to tech support for answers when you're unsure and your forthrightness are refreshing.
Don't let him get under your skin. He's just very sensitive to being told he's wrong. :^)
What he means is he *believes* that they are allied because he's unfamiliar with either product. Dave is very knowledgeable in certain areas but completely unwilling to admit there are large areas of the HA world about which he knows nothing at all.
Heh, heh, heh... :^)
I worked with Homeseer from the very beginning. Rick got his first HA-compatible security hardware from me. I've also helped some other HS dealers with problems on occasion. I used to sell HS and Zwave but they no longer fit my business model so I just refer clients who need them to you. Hopefully some are buying.
Yes, you did get answers to questions I raised earlier. That you sought an expert to answer those questions is commendable. That you continue to make statements that cannot be supported by any evidence is not. You once claimed that a device made by X-10 worked better than any device made by X-10. You didn't even know what you were selling.
The Z-Wave questions I raised were not nitpicking but valid technical questions. The answers probably helped at least a few people better understand their approach. I don't use Z-Wave. I can't afford to buy each new technology that comes along just to test it. However, while I've never had an apple fall on my head, I still understand the law of gravity. I learned electronics (including RF) more than 40 years ago in the USAF, I held an FCC radiotelephone license, my first personal computer was an Osborne I, I spent most of my career in technical fields even though the latter years were in management. I am technically competent. If you choose to argue with me you'd better know your facts - I'll know mine.
I've said that Z-Wave devices will need 20-25' spacing, that they use a proprietary protocol and a non-standard frequency. I've said they price their SDK too high. I really haven't said much else yet get accused of saying "bad" things. I've said far "badder" things about ZigBee. Until about two years ago I said that ZigBee was a "solution in search of a problem" that had been designed by a committee, had gone through about a dozen name changes and was never likely to make it to market. It has made it to market and there are many major companies supplying hardware while most of the major companies "supporting" Z-Wave have only supplied press releases.
Who do you think manufactures the HomeSeer labeled Z-Wave products? Why do you suppose that Zensys resisted introducing a serial version of the PC interface despite the fact that, at heart, it was a serial interface with a USB adapter grafted on?
Have you visited the HS forums? There are a lot of negative posts about Z-Wave. I'd quote some but I'd be accused of bad-mouthing something I don't own.
Proof? Read any of your posts. All exhibit multiple spelling errors and show poor command of the English language. IIRC, you are attending college. I suspect you get similar comments from most of your professors. You do not present a very good image for your business and it's no surprise that people might still buy elsewhere even after getting most of their information from you and even when your price is lower.
As for technical details on HomePlug, see
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There have also been a few posts here from users saying that they use it with X-10 with no interference. I tend to note and remember such things while they probably go over your head.
And, at least one dealer (who from all appearances is technically competent) has said that Z-Wave has a shorter warranty and generates more returns than competitive switches.
You may not need to have a Zwave switch fall on your head to understand it either. However, a cursory examination of the available information would show you've erred repeatedly while making strongly worded declarations as though you actually knew the products.
The SDK is not intended for your personal use. It's intended for corporate developers who are making a commitment to develop and market Zwave compatible hardware. That and the level of support which Zensys must devote to bringing developers up to speed are probably the reasons they priced it as it is.
There are two companies whose products Homeseer used to sell. Last time I checked the hardware was not private labeled. That may have changed but rest assured that Zensys is not depending on Homeseer as their prime developer.
That one's easy. Homeseer asked them to do so. HS is a serious developer -- not an angry Usenet poster sitting in his apartment complaining that the SDK costs more than he can spot.
Perhaps if you actually tried out some of their stuff your complaints would hold merit.
Whereas you show poor command of your ill temper. I know some well educated people who can't spell very well. I also know some who can spell but don't type well, myself included.
I suspect you'd get smacked in the mouth a lot if you behaved in public the way you do here.
I send him customers every so often.
Is your ego so weak that the only way you can inflate it is to insult anyone with the temerity to disagree with you?
That explains a lot of his animosity toward Homeseer and Zwave. The other thing that really gets him roiled is that you and I have both disagreed with him, then ribbed him a bit for his rude replies.
Anyone who dares to disagree with him gets the "you're illiterate and incompetent but I'm an expert" lecture. He did the same thing to Elk's engineers when he couldn't understand their documentation.
It helps to understand the history of Dave's schadenfreud toward Homeseer to assess the objectivity of his related opinions posted in comp.home.automation.
About six years ago while Dave was developing and endlessly hawking in this newsgroup a commercial home automation software program (Commander-X), Rich was quietly coding Homeseer. Homeseer trounced Commander-X..
Dave also worked on and promoted for a long time a hardware wireless product that also failed to thrive and his family apparently shut down support for that too. Now Homeseer is capitalizing on Z-wave.
Dave had plans to develop a pc-based home automation controller, but ABIK, mention of that has disappeared from his web site. In the mean time, Homeseer has introduced a pc-based home automation appliance.
That's three swings (HA software, HA wireless hardware, pc-based HA controller).
CQC supports Z-Wave now, and supports it very well as of the new 1.4 release about to come out. So it's definitely not just HS that supports it. Zen-Sys didn't by any means make it easy for us to add this support, and I think that they really fail to understand what market development means, but we managed to do it anyway. I'm using Z-Wave here at my place via CQC and it's be extremely reliable for me. But that's in a fairly small system.
Bit biggest is that, since no current Z-Wave devices send async state change notifications, it becomes a polled system, and the low bandwidth limits how low the latency can be kept once you get up to a certain number of modules. But, beyond that, it's working fine for us and our customers now. In a larger system, you'd probably have to give up two way on some of the less important modules in order to the polling latency for the others down.
------------------------------------- Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
Again you're completely wrong and talking about stuff you have no clue about or even care to review. Please here is a site that will explain my point.
Warranty 6-years? How many other switches do this?
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"I've said that Z-Wave devices will need 20-25' spacing, that they use a proprietary protocol and a non-standard frequency."
Wrong again. Why because I have them installed and don't need this 20-25' spacing. But because I'm not a technical expert I can't tell you exactly why your wrong but I have real world experience in debating this, it is simply not true!
I can also tell you what is wrong with the USB interface and what is being done about this. And I could tell you about other Zwave products that are in my hand but unfortunately I can't because of confidentiality.
As to my experience in college I have a 3.5 at a major university not a college. My degrees are in Criminal Justice / Psychology and soon MBA. I see the Usenet forums as informal and I'm sorry that my grammar skills are not to your level. Most of my posts are made at my real job where I have little time.
You are helpful and knowledgeable about many subjects but when you attack others personally that shows your desperation. This I do know for certain as Psychology is my field of study.
--------------------------------------- Brian Dye snipped-for-privacy@tech-home.com
More accurately, every so often he gets fed up with your abusive behavior and says something which you don't like to see -- the truth.
Your failure to realize your dreams is no excuse for the way you attack others who are realizing theirs.
Your physical problems are also no excuse for the way you treat other posters. You are wrong about Zwave. You're wrong about Homeseer. You're wrong about the other gentleman and his business. Most importantly, you're wrong in the way you behave.
I once made the mistake of taking pity on you when you posted a page on your website explaining your physical and financial difficulties. Privately offering help so that you would be spared any embarrassment in spite of our past differences, I received in return your public attack. It is unfortunate that you are disabled and in ill health. However, it's also your problem and of no concern to those you attack and berate.
You're certainly right that had they decided to take the route you would prefer their product would enjoy more support from small developers. However, they have apparently taken the other approach and for good reason. If they concentrate on developing relationships with Microsoft, Intel, GE and the like, they are in a very strong position to grab a major portion of the marketplace and do it quickly.
OTOH, if they devote time to folks like you (no disrespect here; I think you're on the road to major success), they will have less resources to devote to the industry big boys.
Fortunately for a soon-to-be-significant segment of the DIY community, you've managed to get past the SDK hurdle and write your own module. Homeseer isn't a big player yet but they are well on the way. They have more capital so they bought the SDK and got the support with it. Either way, two more vendors are now supporting Zwave.
If you mean were they more cooperative with HS, the answer is probably yes. HS, as I understand it, paid the price for the toolkit stuff, which probably got them a little more love. We just couldn't justify paying all that money for what could essentially have been written down in ~10 pages of high level info plus about 3 smallish documents of spec details that already existed, i.e. the information that someone wanting to interface to ZW, as apposed to build ZW hardware, would need. So effectively we had to figure it out ourselves, but we did in the end.
I've made my dismay about their lack of support for folks like us known to them in fairly strong terms, assuming what I think really matters. I would just think that, had they taken the opposite approach with automation system vendors (as apposed to hardware OEMs) and really helped us to get quality support for their product in place, and gave us the docs we need instead of making us pay for the right, that right now UPB and Zigbee would be looking at a much more entrenched status quo, because Z-Wave would be robustly supported in every automation product, and more people would have adopted it because it was there and supported and in a good position between high end stuff and X-10.
------------------------------------- Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
I said nothing about the warranty but merely quoted another dealer. I even included a URL so you could verify that I quoted him accurately. You really should take a reading comprehension course.
You are the only one I've seen who disputes the need for 20-25' spacing. I recall you saying you got something like 100'. Others have agreed with me. The FCC limits the output power of all such devices and all of them are going to have about the same range. It's a matter of physics.
I posted the details of their USB interface here several months ago and did so based solely on my knowledge of such things without ever seeing the actual interface.
You have repeatedly claimed special knowledge of soon to be announced magnificent products. So far, most of those who have licensed the technology seem to be merely supplying the same basic devices that Zensys originally developed with the only major difference being the color. Dean Roddey has pointed out some limitations (most of which I pointed out months ago).
I don't recall any "major university" in your area.
I assume from the criminal justice thing that you plan to be a cop. If you really do plan to be a psychologist get good malpractice insurance. Online diagnoses of people you've never met are probably frowned on by real psychologists.
I really have no use for any dish>Again you're completely wrong and talking about stuff you have no clue about
"Dean Roddey has pointed out some limitations (most of which I pointed out months ago)."
But I also said that we support it. I think it's a major step forward over X-10 and it does seem to work within the natural limitations, though perhaps it might be outdone by Zigbee or UPB, I dunno. UPB has limitations as well though mostly different ones, and Zigbee probably isn't going to be that much different from Z-Wave since they come from the same root stock as I understand it. We'll see when we see.
We are agnostic about such things and will support whatever we can if there's sufficient customers to be had to make up for the effort.
------------------------------------- Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
Oh, I wasn't asking them to give me any support at all. I just wanted the documentation I needed, that's it. If they would take a couple days and write it down correctly they wouldn't have to provide any more than trivial support to companies like ours looking to support the product. They are completely oriented towards hardware OEMs it seems to me. They really put no thought or effort into being supported by automation systems. And that would include big automation systems as well, not just smaller fry like us.
If, instead of trying to charge thousands for the right to support the product, with the reason being they would have to provide lots of hand-holding support (something that no other company we work with seems to have a problem with, since they understand it's an investment in market development), they would just have documented it properly, then it wouldn't have cost them hardly any support, and we could have gotten support in place quickly and correctly far earlier on. Ok, that was the run-on sentence from hell, but hopefully the point got across. Basically, they created the hand-holding requirement by not doing the tiny bit of work required to document how to do it right.
Literally, what it would have taken to make this happen would have been three pretty small documents on the protocol and a little overview (already part of the overall SDK), about a 10 page writeup of the issues specific to an external control system (the big missing part), a good sample program (they provide a pretty useless one), and the headers (already part ofthe SDK). They could have passed that out to every vendor like us who wanted to support it and left us to our own devices and any competent company could have provided good support with no support, or at most a couple of e-mails that some mid-level engineer could have fielded.
------------------------------------- Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
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