Insteon receptacles?

Not yet

From:Fabrizio Santini snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net

Do you think they are going to be available soon? What's the problem of building Insteon enabled receptacles?

I have no inside info so I don't really know when or even if they will offer them but I can't see any reason that they couldn't if they thought there was a market for them. As for WHY they don't have them now, if you look at the Insteon products released to date, you'll notice that they are using all the same housings and plastics as for their X10 Switchlinc products. Since they never had a Switchlinc outlet they will have to do the plastics for that which takes some time and money. Probably just not at the top of the list yet.

From:Fabrizio Santini snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net

Does the ICON use Switchlinc plastics?

Another factor may be that the volume of X-10 bus>I have no inside info so I don't really know when or even if they will

The SmartHome devices have always struck me as a little too big to cram into an outlet box successfully.

-- Bobby G.

Tain't so - at least, not with the ICON switches.

All the Insteon, ICON and Switchlinc plug-in modules use the same housings with various openings as needed. The Insteon and ICON wall switches are only 1" deep - about the same a standard switch. Both use the same housing with the only difference being the paddle bezel and number of LEDs. The back is clear so you can see that they also share the same circuitry. It is obvious that these are the same units with different feature sets. Perhaps the ICONs are missing a chip or maybe it's just a firmware difference.

From:Robert Green ROBERT snipped-for-privacy@YAH00.COM

Sorry I was unclear. Since the thread was about receptacles, I was basing my comments not on the switch series, but on their plug-in Switchlinc "appliance" modules which, my wife assures me, are much larger than their X-10 counterparts. (I just measured one and it's substantially larger than its X-10 counterpart in every dimension - an inch taller, at least.) AFAIK, Smarthome's line is conspicuously absent a switched in-wall 110VAC receptacle so we have nothing to really compare it to except the X-10 device.

An outlet is always going to have a minimum depth based on the length of a common three-prong plug. Now, multiply that by two and a duplex wall outlet module *has* to consume more space than a comparable switch module right on the drawing board (or CAD/CAM screen for all you young whippersnappers!)

A duplex outlet almost certainly has to consume more cubic inches in a box than a switch will. You can shrink a switch in PLC devices to miniature size because it's not directly switching the load, it's triggering a larger current switching device like a triac or a relay. But you can't shrink the number of cubic inches lost to outlet sockets unless you make them external to the outlet. Hence the appliance module. Just put two X-10 appliance modules head-to-head and you'll see. Then compare two SwitchLinc appliance modules head-to-head they take up the volume that *three* X-10 appliance modules could fit in.

I think X-10 "in-the-wall" outlets (only 1 outlet switched, BTW, probably to reduce size demands) have a high failure rate because they are packed too tight and the components suffer from heat damage. I would have to run temperature tests to be sure, but the plastic cams in the failed ones I've seen have become brittle from the heat and break and tend to look like the brown spot that appears above the transformer in their minicontrollers.

It wouldn't surprise me if SmartHome *does* have a duplex outlet in beta, but that the failure rate is too high to release it without a redesign. I've seen some pretty impressive internal sparking from X-10 appliance modules switching loads close to capacity. I'll bet that back-EMF and all sorts of other issues involving relay switching of large inductive AC loads just *plagues* appliance module designers. Dimmers are typically rated for much smaller and "friendlier" loads. IIRC, X-10's max switch rating is 500W but their appliance modules are rated for 1500W. That makes comparing light dimming switches to outlets just a little unequal. Which gets me back to what I said in the first place:

I'll rephrase my original comment "the SmartHome appliance modules have always struck me as a little too big to successfully create a duplex outlet in-wall receptacle from their existing design."

They still do! :-)

-- Bobby G.

Considering how small they made the SwitchLinc V2s, I would say that the larger housing of the LampLinc V2s and ApplianceLinc V2s is simply a design issue. Also, SmartHome has used the same housing for several different products and from their manufacturing standpoint that would make sense.

I would see them having no problem making a standard sized duplex outlet similar to the X-10 ones (at worse, just as deep).

(And like many others here, I wish they WOULD hurry up and make them!)

Yes, you're right, I was comparing the wall switches. The plug-in modules are needlessly huge. The Leviton X10 plug-ins are a nice size, wish they'd copy that design! BTW, Leviton offers a version of the X10 outlet with both switched rather than just the one that X10 offers. It's really just a matter of internal wiring as they are not switched seperately.

From:Robert Green ROBERT snipped-for-privacy@YAH00.COM

Well, they haven't been able to design a reliable in wall-outlet yet. They don't even have their own X-10 version as far as I can tell. That tells me there's something wrong. Not enough demand? Maybe, but I doubt it. There have been plenty of calls for it, including yours and the OP's.

The new *switches* are smaller BUT they are switches, not outlets. It's not a fair comparison. They have a single relay in a configuration that doesn't have to include space for inserting two three-prong grounded plugs. A duplex wall receptacle with two fully-addressable 110VAC outlets will require space for two relays and two receptacles. That makes them hard to compare reasonably to a device like a wall switch which needs only one relay and NO real estate inside the box for two receptacles.

As slim as it is, even the V2 couldn't easily accommodate the addition of two grounded 110VAC receptacles AND a second 110VAC relay. Imagine smushing a 99 cent Home Depot outlet into that Switchlinc box in the photo above. Now imagine cramming *another* Switchlinc inside the box so you can remotely control both the lower and upper outlets. I believe that's why we've seen no such devices from Smarthome. They can't imagine how to cram 10 pounds of

Actually, I think it's a smart move. The X-10 outlet has a terrible reputation for reliability. I think they didn't want to inherit that reputation and are working on different designs to insure an ultra-reliable outlet because it's both a pain and a hazard to have to constantly replace them if they fail. The in-wall wiring pigtails get flexed too much and often break if you pull a switch or outlet too many times, especially in a house with old wires.

-- Bobby G.

We have most off-white walls. When SWMBO saw the battleship-sized and battleship gray ApplianceLincs, back they went to Smarthome. They actually made the small X-10 appliance modules look good to her.

By "both switched" you mean upper and lower outlets respond to the same address? That's a compromise design, IMHO. Ideally, you want to control upper and lower outlets separately but I don't think they could cram a second relay in the Leviton box. I've looked inside a couple of dead X10 duplex outlets. It's cramped.

Ideally, both upper and lower outlets could be individually addressed and either switched or unswitched. They should also be capable of being wired to separate circuits like they do some kitchens to provide 30A per outlet point for toaster ovens and high wattage appliances, etc. It would be nice to know the answer to "Did I leave the toaster oven on?" (which is easy to do with some of them just by closing the door) remotely by knowing that outlet Kitch3 was OFF. Oh, and that's really off - no current at all going to the appliance not any of this "based on my state table I believe it is off" crap. Off. That has to be switchable, too, because so many new appliances have "sleep" modes. No wonder we haven't seen a good duplex outlet yet! Lots of factors to look at when they design and build a good one. :-)

It will be interesting to see what they design if they ever get around to releasing one. Once upon a time someone from Smarthome used to post here, but he was probably run out of town on a DIN rail. :-)

-- Bobby G.

The slimnesss of the case comes at the expense of volume available for the inductor -- it is only 5 turns around a toroid core, European CE requirements for noise are more restrictive than US so a European model might require a redesign of the case. I will be scoping the noise these dimmers create when I get back to HA stuff in April.

... Marc Marc_F_Hult