NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm.
Thanks for the reference, Frank. I followed a similar discussion over on worthingtonsolutions.com, and a conclusion they came up with there was that a connection via a relay to a security panel was within code (i.e., it didn't do any harm to the hard-wired smokes). However, using the hard-wired smokes with a relay does not make the security panel a valid fire protection / detection device. For example, if you had that setup and it was hooked up to a monitoring company, you could not claim that the system was actively monitored for fire detection (for insurance purposes, etc.). However, the house is still properly protected for fire detection per code.
Personally, I used a Firex relay to connect my 110v interconnected smokes to my OmniPro panel. The panel is not monitored by a company, but I have it set up to perform certain actions if the Firex relay is activated, such as turn off the HVAC systems, turn on lights, etc.
My insurance agent simply asked if the smoke alarms were monitored. They don't really care about anything else. You should check the fine print on your policy however as some may include additional requirements like: UL(C) listed monitoring services, annual testing by a qualified technician, etc. These days the "fine print" is more important than ever. If you use an insurance broker (or agent) he should be familiar enough with your own requirements and be able to categorize the risk properly to provide you with optimum coverage.
GASP!!! That's "against Bass"! I'll report you immediately! :-)
The problem which Mr. Olson is ignoring (and I must conclude that he does so deliberately as he has had ample time to find the US code and knows full well what he advocates is against it) is that the devices MUST be listed for use with a fire alarm. Olson can claim that a residential alarm with smoke detectors connected, installed by a DIYer does not constitute a fire alarm but he is wrong. There is simply no waiver of self-installed systems in code. There is also no waicver of the requirement that componentys be "listed for the purpose" by the manufacturer in the snipet he quoted above.
As to the forum you mention, comments made there are (like those here) mostly supposition. If you want the truth of thge matter, ask your local inspector. He has the final say on the matter. In fact, as the "authority having jurisdiction" (AHJ), he is the arbiter of the interpretation and application of the code.
Please note that Mr. Olson lives in Canada and, based upon his many stories in a certain other newsgroup, he has never worked in the US. He has no experience dealing with AHJ's or, for that matter, code in the US. If readers are looking for information on installing or modifying smoke detection systems anywhere in the USA, I strongly advise they take his advice with a large grain of salt.
Regards, Robert L Bass
Bass Home Electronics The DIY Home Automation Store
A residential burg/security panel *of any kind* is not considered a fire alarm *system*. A fire alarm panel cannot be considered a burg/security system. They are completely separate *systems*. The definition of a fire alarm system makes *no provision* (or allowance) for interconnection of security related components (door contacts, motion sensors, etc.). A DIYer *CANNOT* install a fire alarm *system*. In most States and Provinces you need a qualified electrican (or installer) to do so.
Post the relevant section of the code that "magically" transforms a burg/security system into a fire alarm system. There is none. The definition of a "fire alarm system" doesn't count and won't support your claim. Interconnecting your home's smoke alarms to an auto dialer or security panel *is allowed*, Robert, as long as you use the relay that's listed for use with the particular smoke alarms you have. Furthermore, such interconnection *DOES NOT* constitute a fire alarm *system* by any stretch of your imagination and does NOT make it subject to the provisions under NFPA 72 for listed fire alarm systems.
Correct. And no AHJ would care what you hooked up to your premises burg/security panel. The only time he would is if you decided to hook up your commercial fire alarm system to a burg/security panel. In this instance, the communicator must meet the requirements stipulated under NFPA 72.
Check. And based on the many stories you've posted in a certain other newsgroup, you've never worked in the US either. ;-)
Fat lot you know.
That's funny. I was going to say the exact same thing about you.
"Move over Frankie Boy, I'm drivin'!" - Group-Moderator
I'm not in the least offended. Robert's wrong. Unfortunately (as you can see) even posting the relevant section of the code isn't enough. He's got the "bit between his teeth" and he's gonna run 'till he drops...
That's exactly what we *are* talking about. A panel that's UL Listed as a resi burg/fire *panel*. To make it a listed *fire alarm system* entails a whole different set of rules (and definitions). Hooking your
110VAC smoke alarms (while not *recommended*) to your UL (or "non-UL") listed resi burg/fire panel does not make it a *fire alarm system*. There's nothing in the code that supports (or even comes close to) Robert's claim. Even posting the relevant section concerning the very thing we're discussing here (connecting 110VAC smoke alarms to a security system/control panel) doesn't seem to have any effect. Like I said before... Robert's "got the bit between his teeth" and he's gonna run with it until he drops...
That is exactly what we're speaking of. You might want to take note that combination fire/burglar alarm control panels used for fire detection in private residences within the USA are required to carry a UL listing. Specifically, they carry the UL 985, "Household Fire-warning System Unit" listing. Most control panels actually carry more than one listing. That is why manufacturers spend tens of thousands of dollars getting them listed. Without that listing the local inspector will reject the panel and no alarm company would buy or install it.
Note: Not all inspectors care a hoot about burglar alarms. However, the vast majority will insist upon code compliance when it comes to fire detection. While interconnected 110VAC detectors can and do meet the code requirements if properly located and wired, once they are connected to an alarm control panel they become part of a fire alarm system. Do so using a non-listed panel and you have a non-compliant fire alarm system.
This is somewhat analagous to DOT requirements for automobiles. You are required to have (among other things) operable brakes and a regulated exhaust system on passenger vehicles driven upon public highways. Now suppose you decide to build a four-wheeled, engine driven vehicle without submitting it for DOT testing. The thing has no brakes and the exhaust pipe spews clouds of gray smoke. When the police pull you over will you claim that your car is exempt from the state vehicular code because it's home-made and it doesn't have brakes, a muffler or a catalytic converter? Of course not. That would be as ludicrous as claiming that a fire alarm system doesn't have to comply with NFPA72 because you built it yourself and you connected non-listed stuff to it. It's still a fire alarm system -- an illegal one.
By the way, the listing for residential burglar alarm control panels is UL 1023, "Household Burglar Alarm System Units". Even these should be listed units though some inspectore don't care. Insurers often ask if the components are all UL listed when considering a premium reduction. They don't want to know it the unit complies as a UL listed toaster. They're asking for UL listed alarm components. For clarity, this is not the same as requiring a UL *certificated* installation. That's another matter entirely.
There is another issue with connecting 110VAC smoke detectors to an alarm control panel. Code requires that all parts of the system be connected according to the manufacturer's instructions. Every listed panel sold in the USA requires that smoke detection circuits be supervised. There can be no "T-taps" in the wiring. There must be a supervisory device connected to the last smoke detector (the one farthest from the panel). If the detectors are not 2-wire, the power to the detectors must also be supervised so that no detector can be disconnected without the control panel sensing and indicating a "trouble" condition. With these relays there is no way to comply with these requirements. You cannot supervise 110VAC wiring to the smoke detectors. If one becomes disconnected the others -- and the relay-- will not know it and will not indicate it to the control panel.
Furthermore, because the relay relies on 110VAC to operate, the panel will not sense a fire if the power goes out. Unfortunately, the electrical system is often one of the first things to fail during a fire.
Ok, fine. My Firex relay was installed by the electrician last year when the house was built. The electrical inspector approved the device for the intended purpose -- connection to a security panel (I specifically talked to him about it).
First of all, I don't see "Mr. Olson" "advocating" for anything but "doing it right". He's simply pointing out that NFPA does allow interconnection of smoke alarms to a home security system. I've read his original response and followed this thread with interest. Your whole argument hinges on an interpretation of code that no AHJ (in his right mind) would support. There is nothing in any North American code or standard that would prohibit someone from interconnecting their smoke alarms to an auto dialler or home security system.
All I see is that _you're_ the one "ignoring" plain facts placed before you. "Mr. Olson" recommended against using AC smoke alarms in one of his very first responses. "Mr. Olson" provided the relevent text from the very "code" you keep waving in front of everyone that supports his argument, yet you continue to cling to rhetoric that's unsubstantiated and appears to spring from your own "personal animus".
Hmmmm.... Yet the ELK M-1 Gold wasn't listed... yet you sold it. How many unlisted systems did you sell and were your customers aware that they were installing something at any self-respecting local inspector would reject?
There's not one of my aquaintance that does. In fact, many alarm companies (in Vancouver) install systems every day without even pulling a permit.
The only "code issue" a homeowner has to address is the proper placement of the requisite 110VAC smoke alarms.
That is utter poppy-c*ck. Quote the relevant chapter and verse in either NEC or NFPA that states this.
Uh-huh. So you're makin' a "big stink" over the fact that *your* interpretation of "code" is based on a definition of a fire alarm system, yet you still haven't provided chapter and verse for your claim that attaching a heat detector to a burg/security panel makes it a "fire alarm system". You're now basing your argument on automobile certification, for Petem's sake.
Let's examine some of the things *you've* done with UL listed equipment and installations. These are far more relevant and I really would like to see you explain:
The church in CT with the Napco dual channel fire alarm commmunicator. You took it upon yourself to compromise the main incoming telephone line in order to force the panel to communicate a test signal on the second telephone line. What you really did was compromise the UL Listing of the communicator and the life safety of your clients by placing a *RELAY* on the incoming phone line ahead of the communicator. This violates not only the manufacturers installation instructions (and the UL Listing), but NFPA, and NEC.
You ran a "modestly successful central station alarm company" for "X" years in CT. You employed a UL Listed digital receiver to process alarm and miscellaneous signals from your customers security panels. You installed a six line call display board in order to "fault" the incomming phone line for five seconds when a non-paying customer's system called in to "test". You stated that your operation wasn't "UL Listed" so you could do this with impunity.
What "code" are you quoting now? Chapter... Verse...
What "code" allowed you to do the things I mentioned above?
Horse hockey. Only "UL Listed" *Systems* require supervised fire circuits. You can leave the end of lines inside the control panel if you wanted (I wouldn't recommend it but I've seen dozens of systems where the nimrod installer did this) and no AHJ is going to say squat. They don't care what you install in your home as a burg/security system. If they did, outfits like "AlarmFarce" wouldn't be allowed to operate.
If you consider installing unsupervised smoke detectors into an alarm system (which is contrary to code) "doing it right", I can understand why you would say that. If you don't mind that the system won't respond to a fire if the AC power goes out, go right ahead and advocate such "rightness".
No, that is not "simply" what he is pointing out. He is "simply" advocating using an unacceptable means of wiring smoke detectors to an alarm control panel -- a means that will not pass inspection and may cause an unsuspecting DIYer to suffer unnecessary expense should they follow his "simple" ideas.
How nice.
Actually, I pointed out that code requires that the devices used in a fire alarm system must be listed for the purpose. I also pointed out that the device he advocates using does not comply with NFPA72 requirements for connecting smoke detectors to an alarm control panel. Perhaps you know of a sane AHJ who agrees with you and Mr. Olson that an alarm system with connected smoke detectors isn't a fire alarm and that it isn't required to comply with code.
There is no North American Code. There is NFPA72 and NFPA70 (aka NEC).
I didn't discuss auto-dialers. The code does not refer to "home security systems". It does, however, require that smoke detectors and all of the wiring to them, when connected to an alarm system, be supervised. Care to explain how one can supervise the 110VAC wiring and the 110VAC smokes connected with this relay?
Kindly explain away the plain fact that the deivce with which Mr. Olson and you seem so enamored can be supervised. Please state the plain fact about how it will function during a power interruption.
He also _wrongly_ claimed that it's perfectly ok to use them with an alarm panel. He also _wrongly_ claimed that DIY fire alarms are not legally fire alarms. He also _wrongly_ claimed that he has some idea what he's talking about.
He provided a snippet of code while ignoring the tenor of code which clearly states that he's wrong.
Um, this is USENET -- not TV. It's a text medium.
I cited code which controverts Mr. Olson's and your position. Your turn. :)
Regards, Robert L Bass Fire Alarm Technician Extraordinaire :^)
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
Care to point out the relevant code which states you *can't* hook up an AC smoke alarm to an burg/security panel? Care to point out the relevant code which states that connecting a smoke alarm (or detector) to a burg/security panel makes it a fire alarm system?
Please don't use the definition of a "fire alarm system" as a basis for any reply. It doesn't qualify.
While you're at it, care to point out the relevant code which would allow an installer to circumvent the primary incoming telephone line with a relay so that the fire alarm communicator "tests" on the second line? And of course, the other "classic" where you set up a six line call display unit and interrupted communication on a UL Listed CS receiver for non-paying clients.
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
Heh... By "North American" I'm pretty sure he meant "Canadian" and "American" Codes and Standards.
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
"Snippet?" I don't think a whole paragraph of code which clearly states it's acceptable to interconnect AC smoke alarms to an alarm panel or auto dialer is a "snippet". At what's with the "tenor". I thought you were "bass".
Here's some more text:
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
You haven't cited *one* paragraph from code other than a definition which you've based your entire argument on. Show me where a home alarm system becomes a listed fire alarm system when you connect a heat detector (or smoke alarm) to it. POST THE RELEVANT CODE!!!
Are you saying NFPA actually contradicts itself???
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
I don't think anyone was claiming that if they hook AC smokes to a security panel, it makes the panel a device that you should rely on for fire detection. THAT IS WHAT THE INTERCONNECTED AC SMOKES ARE FOR!
Now, if an installer claimed that by using a relay the system will always properly respond to a fire, I see your point. But, as in my personal case, I am fully aware that my security panel is not a primary fire alarm system. Period. That is what I rely on the smoke detectors for. And there is no code that states I must have an alarm system that automatically dials out when there is a fire.
Ok Robert -- you keep on harping that anything connected to an AC smoke alarm automatically makes it part of a fire alarm system. Your argument ONLY holds water if that is true. Care to quote the relevent code that states that?
Frank has quoted (multiple times) the code that says it is within code to make such a connection (and it doesn't automatically make it a "fire alarm system").
So the ball's back in your court, Robert. It's totally up to you to see if you can return it.
Oh, he will... Couched in more personal insults and outright lies. The man is a total idiot. A moron. A buffoon. Oh sure. He's posted "tons" of "useful" stuff in this Group and all of this will simply "blow over" given enough time. Heck... He may even decide to post about 50 mega-bytes of "HTML" to spool all this bad press off the servers. I'll bet you five bucks that in about six months (maybe even sooner) he'll engage me in another round when someone asks if it's "OK" to hook up their AC smoke alarms to their home alarm panel.
Is that anything like you pretending to be an ex-alarm installer with an indepth knowledge of NFPA and NEC?
Where is "installing unsupervised smoke _alarms_ into an alarm system" contrary to code? NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 is pretty clear on that. That couldn't be "the code" you're talking about could it?
Frank's right. You don't read well.
I know (and work with) several AHJ's and none would view a home security panel as a "fire alarm system".
There's also CAN/ULC-S524 (Installation Standard for Fire Alarm Systems), CAN/ULC-S527 (Standard for Control Units for Fire Alarm Systems) - to mention two "North American" standards - and none of them mention connection of burglarly type devices to a listed fire alarm system. Your argument seems to involve some nonsense about connecting a smoke or heat detector to any security system which then makes it a "fire alarm system". If this were the case every homeowner with a security alarm system would be required to install a seperate "fire alarm system". This is simply not the case. A home or commercial fire/burg control cannot be used as a "listed fire alarm system". For one thing, the siren/bell circuit on every fire/burg panel I know of isn't properly supervised. This would entail using _listed_ fire bells (four terminal type) and furthermore I don't recall a "siren" being an approved fire alarm signalling appliance (in either Canada or the US).
That only applies to listed fire alarm _systems_. Connecting a smoke alarm to your security system does _not_ make it a listed fire alarm system. There's nothing in any code that states it's acceptable to have burglarly devices attached to a fire alarm system. You continue to argue a definition as "code". It's only a general definition used in the code. The code clearly states it's acceptable to connect single or multi-station smoke alarms to a security panel or auto dialer. The code does not state that such connection will make the entire system a "fire alarm".
Quite simply, Mr. Bass. An AC smoke alarm cannot be properly supervised for operation. I'm certain that Mr. Olson is fully aware of this. In your efforts to discount Mr. Olson's experience and knowledge (and mine) you've decided to focus on this one fact. Kindly explain that while it's perfectly acceptable _under code_ to connect a single or multi-station smoke alarm to a security panel, you continue to state that it's unacceptable and that such an installation would merit "rejection" by an electrical inspector. You still have not provided relevant paragraphs in the code to support your argument.
NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 I won't quote the contents of ths paragraph. That's been done several times already.
They aren't in many jurisdictions. Fire alarm systems usually require sealed and stamped drawings, utilize specifically listed components, and require installation practices and methods normally beyond the scope of the average DIYer.
I don't think he ever actually claimed that, however it would appear to me that the individual that has "some idea what he's talking about" is definitely _not_ you.
I really don't think quoting the relevant paragraph from NFPA which refutes your entire argument and clearly demonstrates your complete lack of knowledge of the code is either a "snippet", or "clearly states that he's wrong".
And Frank's a licensed, bonded installer and you, sir, are not.
You're missing the point. Co9de does not care whether you think you can reluy on the AC smokes or not. Code says that when you connect them to an alarm contropl panel you now have a fire alarm system and you must do so in a manner that complies with the requirements of a fire alarm system. If you want to do something in your own home that is non-compliant that is your business. You seem to understand the limitations of what you're doing and I have always advocated consumesrs taking responsibility for their own systems. No problem.
The point is that it is not code compliant and I expained why. For the sake of other readers who may not have the same level of knowledge it is important to point out that the connection is not compliant and that the resultant integrated system can not be relied upon *as a system* due to its inherant weaknesses. You can certinly connect the AC smokes to your system, as long as you understand what you're doing. That does not, however, mean that it is code compliant.
Others should be forwarned that doing things in the manner Olson suggests can lead to an inspector refusing to grant the certificate of occupancy (C.O.), significant expense in rewiring and replacing components if the permit was granted based in part upon the plan for a fire alarm system, possiuble failure to report a fire if the power goes out, etc. If you understand the risks and are willing to accept them, no problem. It's your home and your decision.
Personal note: The above is not meant to condescend in any way so please don't take it that way. I'm only trying to say that I believe it is your right and your responsibility to make your own choices about your security system.
Coreect. However, this is not a private chat but an open newsgroup where numerous people come seeking advice and support for DIY projects. As such, I think we would do them a disservice if we did not point out weaknesses along with advantages of anything we discuss, particularly where it concerns fire alarms. Can we agree on that much.
I realise that these relays make for a convenient, inexpensive means of integrating existing 110VAC smokes to an alarm or automation panel. Frankly, I could sell more systems if I advocated using them. I choose not to recommend them because I believe in offering what I consider more reliable coverage.
I don't disagree with your personal decision. It is, in the final analysis, your decision and yours alone. I only debate the use of these devices because others who read this thread need to understand (as you do) that there are risks in using them and (I'm not sure you realise it but I can assure you it is true) that using them in the manner described is not code compliant.
As to Olson, he knows I'm right, too, but he'd argue with me over whether the sun shines in the Sahara. That has nothing to do with facts. It's a long-standing personal vendetta. 'Nuff said? :^)
That i snot what I said at all. I will repeat it. When you connect smoke detectors or, for that matter, any kind of fire detection devices to an alarm system panel, that system becomes a fire alarm system. For example, you can legally connect an auxiliary relay to a smoke detector to release magnetic door holders. I've done this plenty of times. Another use of an auxi;iary ort add-on relay is to shut down an air handler to prevent the spread of smoke. This is most commonly done using duct smoke detectors. Neither of these examples, by itself, would turn integrated smoke detectors into a fire alarm system.
I already have, but the code applies to what I said above, not what you thought I was saying.
Wrong. Olson has quoted out of context a snippet of code but has deliberately ignored the part of code which applies here. Don't let him mislead you into believing that your system is code compliant.
For me this isn't a game, Kurt. I believe I have answered your questions. I'm not interested in engaging in some sort of contest.
Regards, Robert L Bass
Bass Home Electronics The DIY Home Automation Store
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