firewater?

This is huge if true, from my understanding cracking out hydrogen has been the hurdle for the efficient development of fuel cells. Current research is pursuing getting the hydrogen from methane, ethane, propane, butane, etc. But if solar power can be used to generate the needed RF energy, releasing the hydrogen on a massive scale, fuel cells can be manufacured and recharged at a very low cost considering seawater and sunshine are very abundant and free. Amazing.

I have no idea whether it's true. It does recall those secret atomizer gizmos you were to fit in your fuel line. Has anyone noticed Exxon fencing off beaches and running pipelines into the water?

OTOH, this certainly appears to be for real.

There's nothing amazing about this. I don't understand the hullabaloo.

Nowhere does it say how much energy is required to extract the hydrogen. Electrolysis does the same thing -- but the chemical energy represented by the hydrogen liberated is less than that used to liberate it.

Unless Roy has come up with some new, magical laws of physics and chemistry, the same thing will be true of his RF electrolysis process.

Sigh. Again, there's no huge breakthrough here. This is an energy storage system (just like the electrolysis ones), where the energy is stored in elemental aluminum. After the reaction, you have aluminum oxide and hydrogen (the hydrogen can either be run through a fuel cell or combusted to produce energy). The aluminum oxide has to be converted back into aluminum -- this is conventional, energy-intensive aluminum smelting, and is the equivalent of recharging the batteries. More energy is expended in smelting the aluminum than is liberated by the Al

• H2O => H + AlO2 reaction.

The only real breakthrough here is that you're using a chemical process to crack the H20, instead of an electrolysis process, which means you have a _potentially_ light and small energy storage system, suitable for use in portable devices -- including cars.

Make no mistake: This is still hydrogen as an energy storage or energy transportation medium -- not as fuel.

And, of course, all of this is off-topic.

Kanzius' technique does not involve electrolysis. Whether it is efficient enough to be useful remains to be seen.

The Kanzius method is not being held forth as a means of directly powering vehicles. Apparently, he thinks it might be more suitable for operating turbines to produce electricity. Kanzius and other researchers have been prudent about claims of the system's usefulness in its present form.

FWIW, Kanzius' cancer research is apparently regarded highly enough that there are major studies being conducted at some of the top cancer research facilities in the country, including MD Anderson where pancreatic cancer cells were killed in a laboratory test. The data is far from conclusive but the results of the MD Anderson studies have been so encouraging that multiple studies are now underway elsewhere. For people like myself who are fighting cancer, this is promising research. Though it's not a proven treatment it's definitely not a hoax. If in the process of developing a new treatment for some types of tumors Kanzius has accidentally found a cure for the nation's energy crisis, [Sorry, I have to say it] more power to him. :^)

Not entirely. Alternative energy is of interest to many home automators. I don't want to give the impression of being sold on this thing but it does look interesting and just maybe....

Where can I find papers on this "technique"?

As for "efficiency", even if this technique were 100% efficient at liberating hydrogen, the energy liberated by oxidizing that hydrogen would, at best, equal the energy used to break out the hydrogen in the first place. (And thermodynamics laws say that neither process can possibly be 100% efficient.)

Again, I don't understand where the energy to turn turbines is supposed to come from. You can't "burn" water. You can use energy to break it into its components and then release some of that energy by allowing those components to recombine.

Unless there's an atomic reaction involved, or some chemical reaction other than 2H2+O2 => 2H2O, there's no fuel source here.

If this technique can be applied to fighting cancer, that's great. But it has nothing to do with being an energy _source_.

Can you point at any papers describing the physics or chemistry of the process you're talking about?

Both this and the Purdue project may have application as "hydrogen on demand" methods. Some tree-huggers are impressed with the Purdue project.

It notes that it's possible to achieve 75% efficiency using hydrogen fuel cells but there are problems with recycling the materials.

Another place where it might have application is as storage batteries to store power from wind generators. AEP has announced plans to install sodium-sulphur batteries for this purpose but using the aluminum-gallium method to store wind generated power at a generating plant and recycling the alumina there might make sense.

There were several other articles online about the saltwater method. Most were regurgitations of the original stories from a TV station in Erie, PA. I saw some articles where Kanzius claimed energy output exceeded energy input but am not confident these were accurate. A chemistry professor at Penn State thinks it's worth further study and is looking for funding.

As far as being off topic, how can something that generates light and heat not be on topic? ;)

Have you tried Google? There are a number news of articles on the subject.

Straw man argument? As far as I know, no one has said anything about

100% efficiency.

Burning hydrogen.

Exactly. The idea is to use RF energy to release the hydrogen, then burn it. The expression, "burn water" was journalism.

Yep.

Are we arguing semantics or have you not read about this? I'm not trying to be rude but it sounds as though you've not read what's been published.

No. Kanzius has not yet released detailed information about the energy related aspects of his invention. It looks as though his primary goal remains using the technology for cancer treatment. Since he really is fighting for his life, that's understandable. The ability to release hydrogen gas from salt water was apparently discovered by accident. If this turns out to be efficient enough to be commercially viable and he lives to reap the rewards, he's going to be one very rich man.

" snipped-for-privacy@NOSPAMPUHLEEZschnapp.org" wrote

You could if "cold fusion" worked! (-: But alas, it was another flash in the pan that seemed to violate the laws of common sense as well as thermodynamics. One should immediately become suspicious when "cancer cure" and "limitless energy" show up in the same sentence. Too bad the current world's rulers aren't smart enough to offer a prize for a quantum leap in solar panel efficiency the way they did when mariners needed a clock accurate enough for navigation.

With an oilman as president, we know it won't happen in the US for a while, but maybe someday . . .

The only "free" energy we've got is geo-thermal and solar because it's already there to begin with and given the choice, I'd go solar simply because there's less of a likelihood we'll ruin the inside of the earth mucking about with whatever forces are in balance deep under the surface.

-- Bobby G.

Did he test the device or is this supposition on his part?

And he know this because... ?

Hmm. He said that salt water is not a fuel? I don't think anyone claimed that it was.

Nope.

Yes, that is the idea. Kanzius has not said whether the thing is better than 1:1 efficient. Please don't confuse 1:1 with 100% efficiency (a physical impossibility). The two are different concepts.

Not necessarily. It is at least theoretically possible to "release" (I think "convert" would probably be a better word) more energy than is used in the process. Whether this technique can do so is another matter.

I don't think he's trying to trick anything. We don't yet know how much energy is consumed by the device or how much usable hydrogen gas is being released. Until that information becomes public it's anybody's guess whether this is a significant development. I don't pretend to know that it is going to be useful.

Forgetting for the moment that no one said anything about microwaves, I can understand how as well. On that score we agree.

You assert this emphatically as though you knew for certain. Some scientists who are working on it seem to think you're wrong. I'll wait for more data before asserting either way. It could be a hoax or a mistake. It could be a means of generating limited amounts of energy. It might even turn out to be a major development. We'll see.

Is that directed at me? We haven't met, friend. Enough said?

No one said anything about free hydrogen.

Yep, there's a chemical reaction.

I don't recall anyone mentioning steam.

He didn't say it was a new energy source.

I also give little or no credence to press reports on scientific matters because reporters are rarely scientists. The same is true of press reports on aviation matters. Did you ever notice how many times news reporters state that "the airplane's engine stalled?"

From what I've read so far he's saying that his device released hydrogen from salt water. How much was released and how much electricity it took to do so have not been stated publicly. As I mentioned earlier, his primary goal was and apparently still is to develop a means of killing tumors without damaging nearby tissue. Considering his non-medical background, that's quite an accomplishment all by itself. Others tested the thing and were pretty excited about what they saw, both medicine and energy related. Since that time not much more has been said publicly.

Not much so far. In interviews Kanzius and others have only stated that the device released hydrogen from salt water. Kanzius has made none of the usual BS claims one expects of "water to energy" devices like the garbage sold in PopMech and PopSci classified ads. In fact, he has a record of philanthropy. He seems to be genuinely trying to do something good.

Kanzius never said anything about "burning salt water." That's news reporter BS.

Unless I missed something he didn't use microwaves.

That may take some time. If the thing is useful and he decided to patent it the process can be time consuming. Given his health situation, he might not be the one who patents it. I don't say that facetiously. I hope the guy recovers but the prognosis, according to one MD Anderson researcher, isn't very good.

Whether this device amounts to a hill of beans for energy production or not, it sure would be great if they're able to use it for its intended purpose. We'll have to wait and see, no?

Did they?

The median intelligence of world leaders dropped significantly in

2000.

All energy is already there to begin with.

Perhaps thinking globally ought to be accompanied by acting locally. Still using that ancient fridge in your garage, Bobby?

Uzytkownik "Dave Houston" napisal w wiadomosci news: snipped-for-privacy@nntp.fuse.net...

yet another perpetuum mobile

"Ghost" ...

and a broken link