CFL's and X-10

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The X-10/CFL problem has a lot of dimensions, and as far as I can tell, no
neat solutions.  In examing the schematic for the LM465, it became clear in
a way that I hadn't realized before that whatever plugs into that outlet
becomes an intimate part of the module's circuitry.  Instead of a resistive
load of fairly fixed properties like a tungsten bulb, we are now plugging in
items that interact with the modules in ways their designers probably could
never anticipate.

I'd like to see someone invent a quarter-sized insert (like those old bulb
life extenders that look like little casino-style poker chips) that would
limit CFL-induced noise and signal attenuation AND provide a path for
current to leak back to the module to power it and keep the local sense
circuit active.  Drop it in the socket, screw a CFL bulb in, and no more
X-10 noise, no more CFL flashing or relighting, no more X-10 signal
attenuation.

Even if it did just two of those things, it would be a boon to the greening
the households of X-10 users.  It seems to me that the connection between
the module and the bulb is the right place to fix the problems because a lot
of the CFL/X-10 issues come from the "bad fit" of CFL's into the circuit
designed orginally to accommodate tungsten bulbs.

--
Bobby G.






Re: CFL's and X-10
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CFL

I suspect not.  I don't see anything that would lead me to believe these are
anything special.  Considering that they put the words "no dimming" in small
print with an asterisk I think it's just their way of saying "at least these
modules won't allow you to try to dim undimmable CFL's and ruin them."
However, if I get a chance, I'll drop them a note asking what makes these
different from regular appliance modules.

--
Bobby G.






Re: CFL's and X-10
Robert, I am using CFLs that I purchased at Costco that were listed as
dimmable. They came in a bulk packaging of about 10 or 12 bulbs and
they work flawlessly with my x10 system (Computer controlled, wireless
controlled and wired controlled) as long as I do not try to dim them.
Costco sells two different CFL wattages and it is the lower wattage
bulbs that work. Also I  installed the higher wattage bulbs where I
have multiple lamps an a circuit (kitchen ceiling). with that I left
one lamp with an incandescent bulb and the rest CFLS. Again do not dim
them. Sorry I discarded thee packaging so I can't give you the brand
name. Nooldes

Robert Green wrote:
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Re: CFL's and X-10
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Thanks for the tip.  I've bought a lot of different brands and different
models of the same brand and different lot numbers of the same model and
they've all been different.  The bulb makers are constantly changing their
products  At one point, I was optimizing for low noise, but since I use
filters almost everywhere, that's no longer as important as optimizing for
fewer "relights" and flickering.

I wish I didn't have to be in the business of approving bulbs for each
particular fixture in the house but that's the hand X-10 dealt us until they
come out with a *real* CFL module that preserves local sense without
allowing the bulbs to flicker or relight themselves.  Instead of hiring an
engineer to solve the problem, they turned to deceptive marketing. )-:.

There's a thread about CFL's in alt.home.repair I was tempted to cross-post,
but the temptation faded.  (-:

It seems to say that nearly every CFL user has at least one CFL sticking out
beyond the rim of a lampshape or they are using a too dim CFL somewhere
because the equivalent one doesn't fit or have ended up using two CFLs where
they would have used a single incandescent before.

I've got a few very expensive bulbs I got from Smarthome that are dimmable
via X-10 (more dimmable than most would be a better way to put it) but they
have an oversized base that seriously limits where I can use them (that's a
continuing theme in CFL-land).   I'd really rather see the market move
towards a high-eff. incandescent bulb.

I understand CFL save lots of bucks, and I use them where possible, and I
appreciate the tip but I'd really rather have the HE incandescents that

1) don't afflict my X-10 gear,
2) don't darken considerably over time,
3) don't care if they're cycled on and off by a motion detector,
4) don't care if they're installed base up or down,
5) dim at least two or three steps on X-10 without buzzing
6) don't cause "relighting" or "flickering after turnoff" problems
7) didn't have even a teensy weensy bit of mercury in them  (-:

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Thanks again for the pointer but the real fix either needs to come from X-10
or the light bulb makers themselves.  The problem is, if they can save a
penny (it's probably a much smaller number) per bulb by using a cheaper
component, they'll do it.  Sometimes that means death to X-10 signals. .

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There should be lettering on the base of each bulb with maker, wattage and
other good data.   I would jot that down if I were you simply because I
wouldn't bet that you could get the exact same model from Costco next year,
especially without a model number or UPC to go by.  Surely, they are marked
on the bulb.  Alas, I am not a member of Costco, either, which kind of
queers the deal but perhaps others might be interested in knowing what your
bulbs say.  I've been using the HomeDepot N:Vision bulbs with mixed results.
.

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no
in
resistive
plugging in
could
bulb
would
greening
between
lot



Re: CFL's and X-10

<SNIP>
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I want to add one to this list.  Living in the desert, I have nine ceiling
fans in my house.  I have been using CFLs in the lamp assembly for some of
them.  In this application, the CFLs are pointed downward at an angle, are
subjected to any vibration from the fan, and have a service life no better
(and maybe worse) than an incandescent bulb.  Thus:

8) Don't become unreliable in common household applications such as in
ceiling fans.

<SNIP>

Re: CFL's and X-10
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I also should add another one at the request of my wife:  9) that they fail
benignly, without filling a room with acrid burning plastic smell and smoke.
While I realize that they aren't going to catch fire, and that electrically
speaking a CFL failure is a lot less likely to blow a circuit breaker than a
tungsten bulb, my wife is very sensitive to burning smells and the CFLs
really spook her.

That reminds me of a pet peeve: CFL bulbs that say "remove by grasping
plastic base, never by glass tube" as if there's ever been enough ROOM in a
standard lamp head to get your fingers and the bulb's electronics bay in
there at the same time.   Hopefully, in a few years, the big bulb makers
will be able to develop incandescent bulbs that convert the IR portion of
the light back to visible light and HE tungsten bulbs can be used in all the
places that CFL's have problems.  Or maybe universally as CFL's flicker on
into history with the eight track tape machine.

--
Bobby G.




Re: CFL's and X-10
"Robert Green" wrote:
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I don't know where RG gets his CFL's but I've used them for some time and have
not seen a single one give off any odor at all.  They last a long time, cost
less to operate than incandescents, save precious resources and con tribute
far less pollution in the process.

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Mine has asthma and is extremely sensitive to smells like burning.  She used
CFL's in her (now our) condo in Brazil for years without any of the ill
effects Bobby reports.  Then again, neither she nor I am on a compaign for or
*against* CFL's.

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The above makes me wonder if the author has ever seen, much less used a CFL.
All the models I've seen have a rather bulky area containing the electronics.
One I just examined has over an inch high module -- plenty of room to grasp
and turh the lamp.  However, there is no warning not to handle the glass tube.
Unless there are other models with such a warning on them, I suspect Bobby is
confusing CFL's with halogen bulbs.  Those can suffer an early demise if the
oil from your fingers gets on the glass.

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Perhaps we'll also develope an infinite motion device as well.

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Better yet, how about a discussion of the relavent issues on Usenet, unclouded
by personal agenda.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota Florida 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: CFL's and X-10

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Look at <
http://youtube.com/watch?v=e-LOtKIIKcg
for a different view of
CFLs

--
Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint =  5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3  7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

Re: CFL's and X-10
"Tom Stiller" wrote:
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Let's see.  The person speaking is Ted Poe, a right wing, Texas Republican.

Voted NO on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Jan 2007)
Voted NO on allowing human embryonic stem cell research. (May 2005)
Voted YES on restricting interstate transport of minors to get abortions. (Apr
2005)
Rated 100% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-life stance (190 members). (Dec 2006)
Grant the pre-born equal protection under 14th Amendment. (Jan 2007)
Voted NO on revitalizing severely distressed public housing. (Jan 2008)
Voted NO on regulating the subprime mortgage industry. (Nov 2007)
Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination based on sexual orientation. (Nov
2007)
Voted YES on Constitutionally defining marriage as one-man-one-woman. (Jul
2006)
Rated 0% by the HRC, indicating an anti-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 25% by the NAACP, indicating an anti-affirmative-action stance. (Dec
2006)
Voted NO on allowing stockholder voting on executive compensation. (Apr 2007)
Voted NO on expanding services for offendors' re-entry into society. (Nov
2007)
Voted NO on additional $10.2B for federal education & HHS projects. (Nov 2007)
Voted NO on allowing Courts to decide on "God" in Pledge of Allegiance. (Jul
2006)
Voted NO on $84 million in grants for Black and Hispanic colleges. (Mar 2006)
Voted NO on tax incentives for renewable energy. (Feb 2008)
Voted NO on investing in homegrown biofuel. (Aug 2007)
Voted NO on criminalizing oil cartels like OPEC. (May 2007)
Voted NO on removing oil & gas exploration subsidies. (Jan 2007)
Voted NO on keeping moratorium on drilling for oil offshore. (Jun 2006)
Voted YES on scheduling permitting for new oil refinieries. (Jun 2006)
Voted YES on authorizing construction of new oil refineries. (Oct 2005)
Rated 0% by the CAF, indicating opposition to energy independence. (Dec 2006)
Voted NO on increasing AMTRAK funding by adding $214M to $900M. (Jun 2006)
Voted NO on barring website promoting Yucca Mountain nuclear waste dump. (May
2006)
Voted YES on deauthorizing "critical habitat" for endangered species. (Sep
2005)
Voted NO on deterring foreign arms transfers to China. (Jul 2005)
Voted YES on reforming the UN by restricting US funding. (Jun 2005)
Keep sanctions against Syria until WMDs are dismantled. (May 2007)
Voted NO on assisting workers who lose jobs due to globalization. (Oct 2007)
Voted YES on implementing CAFTA, Central America Free Trade. (Jul 2005)
Block NAFTA Superhighway & North American Union. (Jan 2007)
Voted YES on requiring lobbyist disclosure of bundled donations. (May 2007)
Voted NO on granting Washington DC an Electoral vote & vote in Congress. (Apr
2007)
Voted YES on protecting whistleblowers from employer recrimination. (Mar 2007)
Voted YES on requiring photo ID for voting in federal elections. (Sep 2006)
Voted YES on restricting independent grassroots political committees. (Apr
2006)
Voted YES on prohibiting lawsuits about obesity against food providers. (Oct
2005)
Voted YES on limiting attorney's fees in class action lawsuits. (Feb 2005)
Prohibit non-legislated earmarks. (Jul 2005)

Did you expect to get an accurate, fact-based assessment out of that
character?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota Florida 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: CFL's and X-10

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did he say something that was factually incorrect?

--
Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint =  5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3  7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

Re: CFL's and X-10
dont expect a truthfull answer from bAss



discussion : tomstiller-F43155.18362328062008@news.verizon.net...
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Re: CFL's and X-10
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Or anything but insults from Petem and friends.



Re: CFL's and X-10
B Fuhrmann wrote:
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go tell oprah!

Re: CFL's and X-10


message de groupe de discussion :
8pCdnYajctH3DPrVnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@posted.cpinternet...
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did i ever insult you?

the only one that got it is the one that deserved it...


Re: CFL's and X-10
"Tom Stiller" wrote:
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Did he ever say anything that was factual?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota Florida 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: CFL's and X-10

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From <http://www.epa.gov/mercury/spills/index.htm

Before Clean-up: Air Out the Room
       Have people and pets leave the room, and don't let anyone walk
through the breakage area on their way out.
       Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
       Shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system, if
you have one.
Clean-Up Steps for Hard Surfaces
       Carefully scoop up glass pieces and powder using stiff paper or
cardboard and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a
canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
       Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small
glass fragments and powder.
       Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes.
Place towels in the glass jar or plastic bag.
       Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard
surfaces.
Clean-up Steps for Carpeting or Rug
       Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar
with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
       Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small
glass fragments and powder.
       If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed,
vacuum the area where the bulb was broken.
       Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put the
bag or vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.

And more.

Sometimes even people you don't like are right.

--
Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint =  5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3  7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

Re: CFL's and X-10
"Tom Stiller" wrote:
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That's for serious mercury spills.  It has no more to do with using CFLs in
your home than using a thermometer.

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Yes, but what you quoted does nothing to make Poe honest or reliable.  He's in
lock step with the Idiot.  Don't trust anything he says and, more importantly,
beware of everything he does.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota Florida 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: CFL's and X-10
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No, that IS the official policy for CFLs.
It is basically the same as for thermometers.
It is not that difficult.

My complaints on CFLs are:

SLOW STARTUP
Really a problem for areas that I am in for a short period of time.
A pain in the butt for rooms that I will be in for longer periods but have
to endure low light for a significant time.

LACK OF DIMMABILITY
There are rooms where I want different levels of light depending on the
activity.

--
Bill Fuhrmann



Re: CFL's and X-10
"B Fuhrmann" wrote:
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OK, I stand corrected.

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On those we agree.  I just get a little tired of the BG's anti-CFL rant which
tends to go above and beyond.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota Florida 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>


Re: CFL's and X-10


groupe de discussion : _6OdnVFvFbwXrvrVnZ2dnUVZ_r7inZ2d@giganews.com...
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aint that most of asa people say about you?


 


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