Why would I want to use thermostats with the M1-G?
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Posted by RayWBo@gmail.com on January 21, 2008, 8:56 am
Please log in for more thread options Was just thinking and trying to plan out what I need to implement the ELK M1 in my home. In the area of temperature control, I have a hydronic warm air system with A/C - 2 air handlers, one which has 2 zone dampers. In looking at thermostats (HAI models), I then questioned if I even need them - and might be better suited to simply using temperature sensors in the place of the 3 themostats. Am I missing something or does this make sense? I know that some T-stat models can hook up to the zone damper (ZD)control as well, but also think I could interface to ZD control from the M1 panel -or- use the relay interface and control them without a ZD controller. In my world of justifying toys and gadets, me thinks if I can save some money be eliminating 3 fancy communicating thermostats, I can justify the $1200 (ouch!) touch screen with less sharp pain. Appreciate any feedback.. Ray | ||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Lewis Gardner on January 21, 2008, 10:39 am
Please log in for more thread options The main reason to use thermostats is as a demarcation and user interface to the HVAC system. In your own home this might not be needed. If you are comfortable with servicing your own HVAC system the demarcation between HVAC and automation isn't an issue. However if you have problems with the HVAC system be ready for whatever brain dead tech that comes along to blame any problems on your automation system and try to sell you a whole new HVAC system. Thermostats present a fairly friendly user interface that most people can understand. You may be able to make a better interface with a touchscreen (especially for a 3 zone system) but not everyone will look for temperature controls in a non-thermostat type device. Once again, in your own home this might not be a problem unless you regularly have house sitters, guests or others that might need to adjust the temperature. One other item is that thermostats have a anticipation feature that will start the unit before a set point to make the temperature more even. You should be able to code a feature like this. I have a similar issue in my house. Since it is a older house with 2 floors, a single HVAC unit and no return air from the second floor a thermostat does not work effectively in the summer. I solved this problem by using a Homevision to run the AC according to duty cycle instead of temperature. My control relays run in parallel with the existing thermostat and I set the duty cycle to 0 minutes per hour when the HVAC guy comes. I pick up the current HVAC status via debounced LEDs across the existing thermostat contacts. This way the Homevision knows when the thermostat last ran the AC and won't short cycle of run the AC prematurely. Since I have gone over to a M1 I am now debating myself whether to get an controllable thermostat (RCS) or migrate the programing over to the M1. | ||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Bill Kearney on January 21, 2008, 11:02 am
Please log in for more thread options > The main reason to use thermostats is as a demarcation and user interface
> to the HVAC system. Agreed, it's a lot friendlier to be able to punch some buttons on the wall in the dark at night when it's REALLY COLD. Did it myself just last evening. > This way the Homevision knows when the thermostat last ran the AC and
> won't short cycle of run the AC prematurely. Indeed, you can't just start/stop HVAC systems. There are all sorts of potential problems with doing so. > Since I have gone over to a M1 I am now debating myself whether to get an
> controllable thermostat (RCS) or migrate the programing over to the M1. I'm likewise mulling over just how to integrate a thermostat into a larger HA setup. | ||||||||||||||||
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Posted by RayWBo@gmail.com on January 21, 2008, 8:43 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Jan 21, 3:39=A0pm, Lewis Gardner
> Ray...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Was just thinking and trying to plan out what I need to implement the
> > ELK M1 in my home. In the area of temperature control, I have a > > hydronic warm air system with A/C - 2 air handlers, one which has 2 > > zone dampers. >
> > In looking at thermostats (HAI models), I then questioned if I even
> > need them - and might be better suited to simply using temperature > > sensors in the place of the 3 themostats. Am I missing something or > > does this make sense? >
> The main reason to use thermostats is as a demarcation and user > interface to the HVAC system. > > In your own home this might not be needed. If you are comfortable with > servicing your own HVAC system the demarcation between HVAC and > automation isn't an issue. However if you have problems with the HVAC > system be ready for whatever brain dead tech that comes along to blame > any problems on your automation system and try to sell you a whole new > HVAC system. > > Thermostats present a fairly friendly user interface that most people > can understand. You may be able to make a better interface with a > touchscreen (especially for a 3 zone system) but not everyone will look > for temperature controls in a non-thermostat type device. Once again, in > your own home this might not be a problem unless you regularly have > house sitters, guests or others that might need to adjust the temperature.= >
> One other item is that thermostats have a anticipation feature that will > start the unit before a set point to make the temperature more even. You > should be able to code a feature like this. > > I have a similar issue in my house. Since it is a older house with 2 > floors, a single HVAC unit and no return air from the second floor a > thermostat does not work effectively in the summer. I solved this > problem by using a Homevision to run the AC according to duty cycle > instead of temperature. My control relays run in parallel with the > existing thermostat and I set the duty cycle to 0 minutes per hour when > the HVAC guy comes. I pick up the current HVAC status via debounced LEDs > across the existing thermostat contacts. This way the Homevision knows > when the thermostat last ran the AC and won't short cycle of run the AC > prematurely. > > Since I have gone over to a M1 I am now debating myself whether to get > an controllable thermostat (RCS) or migrate the programing over to the M1.= Great response.. Thanks. I did think of HVAC service, that is pretty much limited to the boiler but is key as you mention. Was thinking of some simple override switching, but at that point might as well just put in the thermostats. | ||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Robert L Bass on January 22, 2008, 11:59 pm
Please log in for more thread options "Dan Lanciani" wrote:
>
> Rather than that you might want to have the thermostats tell you > when someone makes a change (Enerzone/Aprilaire support that) and > then if the change is unacceptable you can restore the set point in > 10-15 minutes. This avoids the uncertainty in how long the manual > change can remain in effect and the associated potential for short > cycling. Good point, Dan, but perhaps I wasn't being clear. I mean to send control signals to the stats, instructing them to return to my preferred settings -- not to over-ride them. That would avoid short-cycling, no? Responding to a signal from the stats rather than polling does make more sense though. Thanks. -- Regards, Robert L Bass ==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle Sarasota · Florida · 34233 http://www.bassburglaralarms.com Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650 Customer Service 941-232-0791 Fax 941-870-3252 ==============================>
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> ELK M1 in my home. In the area of temperature control, I have a
> hydronic warm air system with A/C - 2 air handlers, one which has 2
> zone dampers.
>
> In looking at thermostats (HAI models), I then questioned if I even
> need them - and might be better suited to simply using temperature
> sensors in the place of the 3 themostats. Am I missing something or
> does this make sense?