Justify Upgrade from X-10 to Z-Wave?
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Posted by Tom on June 26, 2008, 10:07 pm
Please log in for more thread options responses to the other post are addressed first ... In the past, it was at my mother's house, she was using a basic key-fob and the mini-timer to control the room lights from an adjustable bed. I knew at the time it had something to do with the bed but I was so new to actually using x10 that I didn't even know it was solvable. In my own home when I first got a 'starter kit', some locations seemed to work part of the time. Those were different than how I use it now but in reading other posts here, I'm seeing how some of the problems likely occured from either line noise or signal suckers. My only real problem was being able to control lights with a mini-timer - it is very tempermental only working about 90% of the time from my bedroom. The position of the lazyboy in the living room seemed to affect how it worked... but it wasn't consistent enough to be proven, just anedotal. >> I hadn't thought about the transceiver but that does make sense given
>> what > I
>> know about the stock unit. I'm doing integration piecmeal... can't afford
> to
>> it all at once. I plan to add a few wired switches at watch to see what
>> problems I run into. I'm just using modules right now and have had little > or
>> not problems other than two different types of controllers that worked
>> poorly from day one. >
> Which controllers have you had trouble with? The mini-timer - never like the thing, just used it because it had a clock. Not well designed IMO and it always ran a bit hot from the power supply. To me, it seemed a bit anal in the limits of features when other products cost less and did more. It worked intermittently for me and finally failed in its remote capability... I wonder if it was defective from day one. The other, was the UR47A Universal remote. Another design behind the curve when I bought it. It takes a steady press to get any of the modules to respond and the TV remote appeared to use a chipset that was at least a generation behind current devices on the market. I had one of the more common cable boxes used by comcast and it couldn't control it - That was 6 years ago and I switched and got sat TV and shoved the thing in the drawer knowing it couldn't control the sat converter. I have it out now, with new batteries and it is sluggish at best sometimes not hitting all the modules. >
>> I have two other controllers that have never yielded a
>> single problem in the 7 years I had everything. >
> Conversely, what model/type controller has been successful for you? It > would help to know details. Consistent success? Hold still - the PHR03 16-channel handheld from x-10Pro! Got two of them and both haven't missed in recent memory. My only gripe is the battery compartment design - cramped and the terminals need an occasional re-forming to keep pressure on the batteries. >
>> So, the question is, as I
>> start to encounter problems, which would be the first step - the > transceiver
>> or the amp? I'm assuming the transceiver but I might be missing
>> something. >
> If installing the XTB-IIR across both phases is not a problem for you (and > I > am assuming it's not because you were talking about the simililarly > installed HCA) then that's where I would start. The WGL unit plugs > directly > into the XTB's digital jack, so you can save yourself a few bucks (20 I > think) by buying the more stripped down WGL All Housecode transceiver > without the powerline interface. Thanks for the input. I now have a clear plan how to progress and a better understanding so that I can ask Jeff some questions... and understand the answers. In using X10, I will have saved substantial money over using Z-wave... and have enough money to buy test signal strenth meter should I start to have problems for troubleshooting. The Monterey power line signal analyzer - is that what you referred to in another thread? I do prefer a digital readout to see real values. I don't need on yet but I'm looking for something to buy down the road. Tom | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Bobby Green on June 27, 2008, 7:09 am
Please log in for more thread options > I'm combining my responses to your two posts into one in this post. The
> responses to the other post are addressed first ... > > > I am unclear about one thing. Are you having intermittent trouble
they
> > already? > > Are there times when things won't turn on or off as they should or as > > do at other times during the day?
>
and
> In the past, it was at my mother's house, she was using a basic key-fob > the mini-timer to control the room lights from an adjustable bed. I knew
at
> the time it had something to do with the bed but I was so new to actually
here,
> using x10 that I didn't even know it was solvable. In my own home when I > first got a 'starter kit', some locations seemed to work part of the time. > Those were different than how I use it now but in reading other posts > I'm seeing how some of the problems likely occured from either line noise
or
> signal suckers. My only real problem was being able to control lights with
a
> mini-timer - it is very tempermental only working about 90% of the time
from
> my bedroom. The position of the lazyboy in the living room seemed to
affect
> how it worked... but it wasn't consistent enough to be proven, just
> anedotal. That helps. You can expect more problems as the distance from controllers to receivers increases. The coin cell powered RF transmitters like the keyfob are notoriously weak, so it doesn't take much to interfere with their transmissions -- Bobby G. > >> I hadn't thought about the transceiver but that does make sense given
> >> what > > I
> >> know about the stock unit. I'm doing integration piecmeal... can't
afford
> > to
> >> it all at once. I plan to add a few wired switches at watch to see what
little
> >> problems I run into. I'm just using modules right now and have had > > or
> >> not problems other than two different types of controllers that worked
> >> poorly from day one. > >
> > Which controllers have you had trouble with? >
clock.
> The mini-timer - never like the thing, just used it because it had a > Not well designed IMO and it always ran a bit hot from the power supply.
To
> me, it seemed a bit anal in the limits of features when other products
cost
> less and did more. It worked intermittently for me and finally failed in
its
> remote capability... I wonder if it was defective from day one.
modules.
> > The other, was the UR47A Universal remote. Another design behind the curve > when I bought it. It takes a steady press to get any of the modules to > respond and the TV remote appeared to use a chipset that was at least a > generation behind current devices on the market. I had one of the more > common cable boxes used by comcast and it couldn't control it - That was 6 > years ago and I switched and got sat TV and shoved the thing in the drawer > knowing it couldn't control the sat converter. I have it out now, with new > batteries and it is sluggish at best sometimes not hitting all the > >
> >> I have two other controllers that have never yielded a
> >> single problem in the 7 years I had everything. > >
> > Conversely, what model/type controller has been successful for you? It > > would help to know details. >
x-10Pro!
> Consistent success? Hold still - the PHR03 16-channel handheld from > Got two of them and both haven't missed in recent memory. My only gripe is
> the battery compartment design - cramped and the terminals need an > occasional re-forming to keep pressure on the batteries. > > >
> >> So, the question is, as I
> >> start to encounter problems, which would be the first step - the > > transceiver
> >> or the amp? I'm assuming the transceiver but I might be missing
> >> something. > >
(and
> > If installing the XTB-IIR across both phases is not a problem for you > > I
> > am assuming it's not because you were talking about the simililarly > > installed HCA) then that's where I would start. The WGL unit plugs > > directly > > into the XTB's digital jack, so you can save yourself a few bucks (20 I > > think) by buying the more stripped down WGL All Housecode transceiver > > without the powerline interface. >
buy
> Thanks for the input. I now have a clear plan how to progress and a better > understanding so that I can ask Jeff some questions... and understand the > answers. > > In using X10, I will have saved substantial money over using Z-wave... and > have enough money to buy test signal strenth meter should I start to have > problems for troubleshooting. The Monterey power line signal analyzer - is > that what you referred to in another thread? I do prefer a digital readout > to see real values. I don't need on yet but I'm looking for something to > down the road.
> > Tom > > | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by BadDog on June 26, 2008, 1:31 pm
Please log in for more thread options
> There is no doubt in my mind that z-wave is superior to x-10 but x-10's
> advantage is cost. Even with the extended x-10's protocol, it still falls > short for complex applications. In my situation, I have a few x-10 > recievers controlling a few lamps around the home. I basically use it to > turn on/off lights in the room I'm in. I don't have a need for pre-set > lighting moods (complete with the hide-away bar that appears with Burt > Bacharach music that starts to play.) I really don't see a need for > lighting computer interface for how I currently use the system. My house > is basically square with one floor at about 1800 sf. My real motivation is > to perpetuate my couch-potato lifestyle by not needing to budge from the > chair to operate room lighting or to turn-off lights in another room. I'm > now getting ready to hardwire wall switches to control ceiling fans and > lights along with some lights for the pool area. > > What I'm asking of you folks here is a justification for one or the other > based on how I use wireless techology. I'm not interested in entertaining > other technologies and would strongly prefer to hear about just the two. > Some may balk at this, but my experience is that a well installed X10 lighting system can be close to 100% reliable. So, IMHO, the added expense of ZWave would not be worth a small, potential improvement in reliability (assuming ZWave is capable of 100% reliability). I must admit, though, that I have not experimented with ZWave. Below is a list of the key steps I found that helped improve X10 reliability (previous CHA posts led me to many of these solutions...Thanks Y'All!). Controller - A rock solid controller is critical. My preference here is for the Ocelot from Adicon. The Ocelot can run indefinitely without hanging or needing a reset, and all macros execute flawlessly. The one caveat is that you will need to program the Ocelot in ladder logic using its CMax language. Some may find this daunting. Signal Strength - Standard X10 signal strength won't cut it; you will need to boost the X10 signals. As with others here, I've had great success with the XTB-IIR from Jeff Volp. The XTB-IIR booms out strong signals to the farthest corners of the house. In fact, the XTB-IIR is so powerful, I can control common area lighting in my condo building, which is outside of my unit and on a completely separate service panel from my own! Signal Collisions - If you use X10 motion detectors to trigger lights, you should try and keep their signals off the power line. Unless everyone in the house is willing to stand perfectly still while lighting macros execute, there will be signal collisions from the motion detectors, and results can be unpredictable. Unfortunately, there may not always be an easy way of isolating the motion detectors. In my case, I use a WGL W800RF32 attached to an Elk M1 security panel to receive signals from ActiveEyes. The Elk then relays this information to the Ocelot via a serial connection. The ActiveEye signals never hit the power line. Scenes - Lighting modules that accept scenes (i.e., multiple X10 codes) allow you to selectively control individual lights, a room of lights, or an entire floor of lights with a single X10 code. If your modules can't accept multiple X10 codes, then your macros will need to send out many more X10 codes to achieve a particular goal. In addition to slowing response time, long macros increase the chance of reliability problems. BD | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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> already?
> Are there times when things won't turn on or off as they should or as they
> do at other times during the day?