Justify Upgrade from X-10 to Z-Wave?
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Posted by BruceR on June 26, 2008, 3:19 pm
Please log in for more thread options a rock solid base for signal delivery. As for the wireless aspect, based on the size of your house, a centrally located WGL V572 receiver should do the trick. Total investment of about $260 will be saved by using X10 vs ZWave switches. >> Yes, the XTB-IIR works extremely well providing a signal boost of up
>> to 20 volts while the HCA02-10E does not work very well at all and >> provides a boost of no more than 5 volts. The XTB-IIR is the ONLY >> amplifier/repeater worth spending money on. I replaced two ACT >> repeaters (much better than the Leviton unit) with one XTB-IIR and >> the performance and reliability went to 99.9+%. >> >>> Is there any reason for this product over, for example, Leviton's
>>> HCA02-10E Amplifier/Coupler/Repeater? >>> >>> Tom >>> >>>> Stick with X10 and solve your signal integrity problems with Jeff >>>> Volp's XTB-IIR. >>>> See http://jeffvolp.home.att.net/xtb_files.htm >>>> >>>> >>>>> There is no doubt in my mind that z-wave is superior to x-10 but >>>>> x-10's advantage is cost. Even with the extended x-10's protocol, >>>>> it still falls short for complex applications. In my situation, I >>>>> have a few x-10 recievers controlling a few lamps around the home. >>>>> I basically use it to turn on/off lights in the room I'm in. I >>>>> don't have a need for pre-set lighting moods (complete with the >>>>> hide-away bar that appears with Burt Bacharach music that starts >>>>> to play.) I really don't see a need for lighting computer >>>>> interface for how I currently use the system. My house is >>>>> basically square with one floor at about 1800 sf. My real >>>>> motivation is to perpetuate my couch-potato lifestyle by not >>>>> needing to budge from the chair to operate room lighting or to >>>>> turn-off lights in another room. I'm now getting ready to hardwire >>>>> wall switches to control ceiling fans and lights along with some >>>>> lights for the pool area. >>>>> >>>>> What I'm asking of you folks here is a justification for one or >>>>> the other based on how I use wireless techology. I'm not >>>>> interested in entertaining other technologies and would strongly >>>>> prefer to hear about just the two. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>
>> >
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Posted by Bobby Green on June 26, 2008, 8:38 pm
Please log in for more thread options > I read both of your reviews. They answered quite a few questions and
outlets
> addressed several concerns. Right now, all my modules work anywhere in the > house (when conditions are ideal) which makes me assume that all the > are on the same leg such that coupling between the two legs isn't
on
> necessary - is this a correct assumption? Assuming that the house is all > one leg, could I not install, using a standard wall plug and outlet, the
> XTB-IIR anywhere in the house? I believe that's the case, but you would have to ask Jeff to be sure. Some people are just lucky in the way their house wiring is laid out and the components they are using. Others are not so lucky. You seem to be pretty lucky so far. If your luck holds, you might be able to make use of the stock RF transceivers. They vary wildly in quality and range. Some can be retuned or have antenna augmentation surgery, and some just happen to work. I am unclear about one thing. Are you having intermittent trouble already? Are there times when things won't turn on or off as they should or as they do at other times during the day? > The articles are a big help in allaying my fears of coughing big bucks for
off
> hard-wired switches and the like. I've had some problems with them in the > past but lacked a real understanding of causes of failures. Thanks for > replying and the articles. I wish the signal was strong enough to switch > my neighbor's terrawatt floodlight system off at night.
If he's using X-10, it might be possible. (-: When I first installed my XTB the signal was so strong it coupled at the pole transformer across the street. I assume if my neighbors were using X-10, they might experience issues, but thanks to the mortgage crisis, I am living in a virtual ghost town. My non-existent neighbors don't even use electricity anymore, let alone X-10 to control it. Good luck! -- Bobby G. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Robert Green on June 27, 2008, 9:42 am
Please log in for more thread options > For driving just one leg he could use the basic XTB with the WGL
> wireless receiver plugged into it. However, he'd be better off for > future expansion with the two legged version as he's bound to use both > legs eventually. I also believe the two-legged version (XTB-IIR) will repeat the signal of any transmitter it hears in the second half of the frame, on that same phase, giving greater "bang for the buck" as IIRC, the OP has non-RF mini-timers to contend with as well as the RF. > Even with a full panel an XTB-IIR can be piggybacked
> onto existing breakers. Most panels will accept double half size > breakers on the bottom 3 or 4 positions on both sides so a couple of > full sized ones can be replaced and provide a dedicated breaker from > each leg. Someone willing to wire a line cord to two or three PC terminals might not want to tackle anything related to 240VAC. I was that guy for 20 years! I haven't priced adding a new 240VAC outlet lately, but I assume it's not cheap. I bought the XTB-IIR eventually and *learned* how to add the outlet, more or less to code. It seems so easy once you know how to do it, but when I had the HCA-10E running, it was hooked into the panel via Velcro and insulated jumper cables. That experience convinced me I was right to not have wasted money having it professionally installed. After buying the plain XTBs, I realized that there was now a repeater with someone willing to fix whatever bugs came its way that outperformed the competition by several orders of magnitude and that my purchase would benefit a small American business too? So I bit the bullet, asked the questions, bought the books, the tools, the equipment and spent far more time, $ and energy than hiring a pro, but now I can do it again the next time with incredible ease. I use the standalone XTB's I bought at the beginning with my own mini-timers, Controlinc Maxis and other line transmitters to guarantee that they can blast around any signal suckers that crept into the house. Not sure how the second frame looks, with the two 25+V signals on the line at the same time, but perhaps that's why I can hear the X-10 signal buzzing faintly from the remote chime module when I plug it in nearby. (-: Sounds like little bumble bees and different commands have clearly differnt "zzzzt zzzzt zzzzt" patterns. I have nothing that would tell me how many volts in the combined signal unless I recalibrate or attenuate the sensitivity of my meters. That's another question for Jeff to answer . . . What happens when an XTB signal is repeated by an XTBIIR? What are the voltage levels for the first and second (repeated) frames? -- Bobby G. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Jeff Volp on June 27, 2008, 10:55 am
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> I use the standalone XTB's I bought at the beginning with my own
> mini-timers, Controlinc Maxis and other line transmitters to guarantee > that > they can blast around any signal suckers that crept into the house. Not > sure how the second frame looks, with the two 25+V signals on the line at > the same time, but perhaps that's why I can hear the X-10 signal buzzing > faintly from the remote chime module when I plug it in nearby. (-: Sounds > like little bumble bees and different commands have clearly differnt > "zzzzt > zzzzt zzzzt" patterns. I have nothing that would tell me how many volts in > the combined signal unless I recalibrate or attenuate the sensitivity of > my > meters. That's another question for Jeff to answer . . . What happens > when > an XTB signal is repeated by an XTBIIR? What are the voltage levels for > the > first and second (repeated) frames? Good question. Actually I have that situation here all the time. When I'm testing XTBs in my lab, my "home" XTB-IIR does participate too. Since the 120KHz is created locally at each transmitter, the frequencies will differ slightly. The actual voltage at any given point is the vector sum of both signals. The original transmitter will obviously dominate the local circuit. Since the XTB-IIR should have the lowest impedance coupling to the distribution panel, its signal should dominate for the remainder of the home. For the techies out there - it is feasible for null points to exist where the two signals will exactly cancel. However, that would mean both signals are identically strong at that point, and are exactly opposite in 120KHz phase throughout the transmission window. Should such a situation occur, remember the first half of the X10 signal is not repeated. That would be the same strength as that received from the XTB-IIR at that node, and the receiving module should have no trouble responding to that first half of the command. Jeff | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Robert Green on July 1, 2008, 11:50 am
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<stuff snipped>
> Good question. Actually I have that situation here all the time. When
I'm
> testing XTBs in my lab, my "home" XTB-IIR does participate too. Since the
the
> 120KHz is created locally at each transmitter, the frequencies will differ > slightly. The actual voltage at any given point is the vector sum of both > signals. The original transmitter will obviously dominate the local > circuit. Since the XTB-IIR should have the lowest impedance coupling to > distribution panel, its signal should dominate for the remainder of the
> home. I hooked up the Monterey PLSA behind an AF120 15A filter and got some interesting readings. The WGL received an RF command and put it through a TW523 onto the house wiring. The Monterey showed normal commands being received (at .15 volts, even behind the filter!) with one exception: The display showed them all in lower case, which means it only saw the second, repeated half of the command. That makes perfect sense. The II is stronger than the original XTB and the XTB/TW523 combo was on another circuit. Only the repeated signal could punch through the filter, as would be expected. The next test is to see whether the WGL's TW-523 alone gives the same readings. If it's higher without the XTB, then there's cancellation going on. If it's higher *with* the XTB then the two signals are combining. IIRC, the IIR alone can't punch through the AF120. The fact that is does so when it's amplifying an already boosted signal from the XTB seems to indicate that the end voltage of an XTB that's repeated by the XTB-IIR is considerably higher than either unit alone. I tried doing some "signal dissect" runs where the Monterey looks at each of the 22 cycles and records 0's and 1's and their voltage during each cycle and that gave me information that seems to imply cancellation is occurring. Cycle 01 1 .42 1 .43 02 1 .39 0 03m 03 0 02m 1 .42 04 1 .38 0 03m 05 1 .38 0 02m 06 0 02m 1 .41 07 0 02m 1 .41 08 0 02m 1 .41 09 1 .37 0 03m 10 1 .37 0 03m 11 1 .38 0 02m 12 1 .25 1 .24 13 1 .22 0 03m 14 0 03m 1 .22 15 1 .21 0 03m 16 1 .20 0 03m 17 0 03m 1 .20 18 0 02m 1 .19 19 0 02m 1 .19 20 1 .18 0 03m 21 1 .18 0 02m 22 1 .17 0 03m Now that I've transcribed that lengthy list two things seem to jump out. First, the noise level is very low, probably the result of the Monterey sitting behind the AF120 filter. The second is that the repeated frame is seems to be actually weaker than the first copy of the X-10 command. Obviously I need to run more tests with both the XTB and the XTB-IIR but it looks like we're seeing some fade in the voltage as the command progresses. Looks fairly linear, too. > For the techies out there - it is feasible for null points to exist where
signals
> the two signals will exactly cancel. However, that would mean both > are identically strong at that point, and are exactly opposite in 120KHz
the
> phase throughout the transmission window. Should such a situation occur, > remember the first half of the X10 signal is not repeated. That would be > the same strength as that received from the XTB-IIR at that node, and the > receiving module should have no trouble responding to that first half of > command.
I didn't expect there to be any trouble. I've been operating a number of ControlLinc Maxi's, MiniTimers and TW523's through XTB's and then through the XTB-IIR that's installed at the circuit breaker panel without any noticeable problems. The very faint X-10 signal noise I can hear if a chime module's plugged in too close to the XTB isn't really a problem - it makes me wonder if the human brain could distinguish the different commands if they were a little louder. Anyway, I'll take some more measurements when I get a chance. The next thing I want to see is whether the XTB-IIR can punch a signal through the AF120 when it's not boosting an XTB signal. -- Bobby G. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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> the XTB some more. Elsewhere on this thread, mention was made of using
> a real transceiver rather than the stock model. I would think that
> would be my first step before the XTB. Am I correct in this thinking
> or am I missing something? Since I'll be building my system a little
> at a time, I'll purchase items as they are needed and can't afford
> everything at once.
>