HA Primer - Pos and cons of X-10, Z-wave, Insteon, UPB
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Posted by echo on April 23, 2007, 2:06 am
Please log in for more thread options still somewhat of an issue and commands still get lost in the ether. It would be nice to add a level of "robustness" to the system. So I start this thread and hope it can become a quick primer on the newer tech versus the X-10 or a mini buyers guide. So what if any would be a good technology to invest in for your modern house ? What are the simple pros and cons of Z-wave and Insteon versus X-10 for a 24/7 PC based automation system. Are there any new technologies promising to make obsolete all the others ? I'll open by summarizing X-10s pros and cons for newbies who might stumble upon this and leave the Zigbee Insteon, etc for other to chime in about. An X-10 "controller" sends a signal to a "module". Modules can turn on, off or dim lights etc. The X-10 controllers and modules constitute a primitive network. X-10 Build quality X-10 is the company who created the first home automation products for the consumer. The technology was fairly advanced for its day, but that was back in the seventies and has seen little improvement since then. X-10 has developed new models over the years but they have lacked the polish of a product suitable for modern homes. Indeed the company seems more interested in quantity of sales versus quality. The plastics they chose degraded and discolored readily, circuit boards suffered from cold solder joints, wall switch contacts were fragile. There are newer models but the best ones always seem to be made by companies other than X-10. Any serious old-school X-10 home automator likely has a box of dead X-10 parts waiting to be recycled when the next module dies. Home Automation got off to a rocky start since X-10 was doomed to be a hobby for the technically inclined. Poor build quality was X-10s first real problem. X-10 and powerline noise X-10's underlying technology is part of its second problem. The homes powerlines that the modules are wired or plugged into, are used to distribute the signals. The signal is one way and modules have no provision to send an acknowledgment. More on that later. If you had an operating TV or motorized appliance plugged into the same circuit as a module, it was unlikely the module would work due to noise on the powerlines. X-10 phase coupling Houses in North America use split phase wiring (2 x 110volt phases = 220V). The X-10 signal had to be able to jump across the from one phase to the other or the signal would only reach half the outlets in the house. A capacitive signal bridge of the phases using a module called a "phase coupler" helped for the most part but required wiring into a 220volt circuit either in a breaker box or a dryer or stove outlet. This was not for the average home owner and is the third problem. X-10 device limitations There are 16 House codes x 16 Unit codes = 256 useable addresses. It was thought that no one would use more than 16 units in their houses. Signals travel on the powerline up to the power pole, cross over to the other phase and back down. In many cases a neighbor who used X-10 could control your lights if they share the same power pole. So the idea was to allow each house to use 16 modules and there could be 16 houses. Who'd have thought I could have 16 devices in a bedroom alone. So this is surely a limitation and X-10s fourth problem. X-10 network speed Commands can only be sent at the zero crossing of the AC waveform which severely limits the amount of information that can be passed in a reasonable amount of time. X-10 control systems have visible lag due to the speed limitations. The fifth problem has and can not be solved with current X-10 technology. X-10 one-way network A big hurdle for automators was not knowing if the signal reached the module or not. X-10s answer was the "2-way module". They are not really 2-way since they can't acknowledge a command directly but they can be polled. the problem is that due to the slow speed of the X-10 network the polling responses can collide with other commands being sent. X-10 2-way is not worth the extra money or trouble. This sixth problem is also hard wired into the protocol. X-10 user unfriendly I had a friend insist on dimming his stereo with an X-10 lamp module, only to watch his amp go up in smoke taking the module with it. Okay these are electrical loads, and the problem is not unique to X-10, all electrical dimmers behave in a similar fashion. A consumer having to know what an inductive load is a mind bender for most, if not all, non technical people. The seventh problem for X-10. Those are the 7 deadly sins in HA as I see it. Yes there may be more but lets get on to the good stuff. X-10 has a wide product line and the availability of unique modules not yet available with other network protocols. An example of this might be the PR511 floodlight motion detector. Pricing can also be a factor and X-10 seems to give stuff away killing the smaller dedicated home automation dealers. Please confine the comments to other technologies since X-10 has already been covered. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Jeff Volp on April 23, 2007, 10:25 am
Please log in for more thread options comments: Modules made by X10 are very inexpensive. Their build quality reflects that fact. Higher quality X10 products are available from other manufactureres at much higher prices. > X-10 and powerline noise
> X-10's underlying technology is part of its second problem. The homes > powerlines that the modules are wired or plugged into, are used to > distribute the signals. The signal is one way and modules have no > provision > to send an acknowledgment. More on that later. If you had an operating TV > or motorized appliance plugged into the same circuit as a module, it was > unlikely the module would work due to noise on the powerlines. Actually, "signal suckers" are more of an issue than noise sources. Most X10 transmitters have limited power output, and their signals are easily attenuated by devices that include a capacitor directly across the powerline, such as most computers. > X-10 phase coupling
> Houses in North America use split phase wiring (2 x 110volt phases = > 220V). > The X-10 signal had to be able to jump across the from one phase to the > other or the signal would only reach half the outlets in the house. A > capacitive signal bridge of the phases using a module called a "phase > coupler" helped for the most part but required wiring into a 220volt > circuit > either in a breaker box or a dryer or stove outlet. This was not for the > average home owner and is the third problem. True, but there are plug-in versions now available that work for many people. > X-10 device limitations
> There are 16 House codes x 16 Unit codes = 256 useable addresses. It was > thought that no one would use more than 16 units in their houses. Signals > travel on the powerline up to the power pole, cross over to the other > phase > and back down. In many cases a neighbor who used X-10 could control your > lights if they share the same power pole. So the idea was to allow each > house to use 16 modules and there could be 16 houses. Who'd have thought I > could have 16 devices in a bedroom alone. So this is surely a limitation > and > X-10s fourth problem. And 640K of RAM and a 20MB harddrive was all any computer user would ever need. There is a signal blocker that can be installed at the distribution panel that allows you to keep all 256 codes for yourself. However, a few house codes will probably serve the needs of most users. > X-10 network speed
> Commands can only be sent at the zero crossing of the AC waveform which > severely limits the amount of information that can be passed in a > reasonable > amount of time. X-10 control systems have visible lag due to the speed > limitations. The fifth problem has and can not be solved with current X-10 > technology. True again. However, X10 speed is adaquate for most home automation applications. Since our Oceltot controls virtually everthing here, the delay is transparent to us. The delay usually becomes a factor if you use X10 motion detectors to trigger lighting. > X-10 one-way network
> A big hurdle for automators was not knowing if the signal reached the > module > or not. X-10s answer was the "2-way module". They are not really 2-way > since they can't acknowledge a command directly but they can be polled. > the > problem is that due to the slow speed of the X-10 network the polling > responses can collide with other commands being sent. X-10 2-way is not > worth the extra money or trouble. This sixth problem is also hard wired > into > the protocol. No answer back is necessary if there is communication reliablity. That is addressed by providing adaquate signal levels at all modules. You almost never ask for return receipt when you mail something. X10 can achieve the same level of communication reliability. > X-10 user unfriendly
> I had a friend insist on dimming his stereo with an X-10 lamp module, only > to watch his amp go up in smoke taking the module with it. Okay these are > electrical loads, and the problem is not unique to X-10, all electrical > dimmers behave in a similar fashion. A consumer having to know what an > inductive load is a mind bender for most, if not all, non technical > people. > The seventh problem for X-10. That is an X10 problem? They do call it a LAMP module. > Those are the 7 deadly sins in HA as I see it. Yes there may be more but
> lets get on to the good stuff. X-10 has a wide product line and the > availability of unique modules not yet available with other network > protocols. An example of this might be the PR511 floodlight motion > detector. > Pricing can also be a factor and X-10 seems to give stuff away killing the > smaller dedicated home automation dealers. Agree here. > Please confine the comments to other technologies since X-10 has already
> been covered. Yes, see: http://jeffvolp.home.att.net/x10_info/x10_troubleshooting.htm Jeff | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Dan Lanciani on April 23, 2007, 3:43 pm
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| X-10s answer was the "2-way module". They are not really 2-way | since they can't acknowledge a command directly but they can be polled. Actually, they can be configured to acknowledge a command (or any state change). I've never needed this feature because (a) I don't have the reliability problems you are worried about and (b) my use for 2-way functionality is generally to see in what state some other person/process has left the device--something that is usually best done at the moment I want the information. You might want to take a look at X10's extended command set; it is quite complete. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Dave Houston on April 23, 2007, 6:02 pm
Please log in for more thread options ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>
>| X-10s answer was the "2-way module". They are not really 2-way >| since they can't acknowledge a command directly but they can be polled. > >Actually, they can be configured to acknowledge a command (or any state >change). I've never needed this feature because (a) I don't have the >reliability problems you are worried about and (b) my use for 2-way >functionality is generally to see in what state some other person/process >has left the device--something that is usually best done at the moment I >want the information. You might want to take a look at X10's extended >command set; it is quite complete. And, most of the Smarthome designed X10-compatible modules report changes and respond to Status Request with the current preset dim level, even transmitting an OFF should a bulb burn out. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by echo on April 25, 2007, 2:59 am
Please log in for more thread options So lets all beat a dead horse. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows
ear. X-10 has had its day and it is time for a more robust technology to fill the need and fix the issues I mentioned. Until we get more robust user friendly devices out there HA will be for the geeks. I would never recommend X-10 for a serious installation because of the 7 problems. Just think how users respond to Windows vs DOS and how Google has changed our lives. No way will home automation come of age until we abandon this old crap. Using signal bridges and having to add filters to TVs and not using power bars with filters that eat x-10. Need I go on. I used to sell this stuff. There is nothing modern about X-10 and justifying its continued sales is like hanging on to DOS. Oh ya..I like DOS and have one PC running 24/7 on DOS 6 oddly enough it runs an ECS based X-10 system. Very powerful in its day, 10+ years ago. As for two-way, sorry X-10 is not. The newer modules can respond because of modern PICs and programming but the protocol underlying is the problem. In a proper communication system the network protocol must handle the error correction and acknowledgments not the application (module). Having a module respond is a Band-Aid that does not work. It clutters up the powerline with even more X-10 commands so that more collisions occur and even more commands get lost making the system less reliable. Answerback modules must be used carefully allowing a time for response. Again, not too friendly. The TCP/IP would be great if it could be implemented over powerlines. But an even more robust protocol would be nice where any module plugged into the homes power system could be auto-detected and have a property sheet instantly available to the control software. I have a feeling a hybrid system of some kind may be good since powerline commands can't be heard by low voltage DC devices. These could easily use a wireless protocol. As I mentioned X-10 has been discussed. Lets talk about something new like the way Insteon works or Zwave, Zigbee, or Home PNP > ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
writes:
> > >
> >| X-10s answer was the "2-way module". They are not really 2-way > >| since they can't acknowledge a command directly but they can be polled. > > > >Actually, they can be configured to acknowledge a command (or any state > >change). I've never needed this feature because (a) I don't have the > >reliability problems you are worried about and (b) my use for 2-way > >functionality is generally to see in what state some other person/process > >has left the device--something that is usually best done at the moment I > >want the information. You might want to take a look at X10's extended > >command set; it is quite complete. >
> And, most of the Smarthome designed X10-compatible modules report changes > and respond to Status Request with the current preset dim level, even > transmitting an OFF should a bulb burn out. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Similar Threads | Posted |
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| Insteon vs UPB vs Zwave | February 18, 2006, 10:32 pm |
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| Software for Insteon and Zwave | May 25, 2007, 3:30 am |
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> still somewhat of an issue and commands still get lost in the ether. It
> would be nice to add a level of "robustness" to the system. So I start
> this
> thread and hope it can become a quick primer on the newer tech versus the
> X-10 or a mini buyers guide.
>
> So what if any would be a good technology to invest in for your modern
> house
> ? What are the simple pros and cons of Z-wave and Insteon versus X-10 for
> a
> 24/7 PC based automation system. Are there any new technologies promising
> to
> make obsolete all the others ?
>
> I'll open by summarizing X-10s pros and cons for newbies who might stumble
> upon this and leave the Zigbee Insteon, etc for other to chime in about.
>
> An X-10 "controller" sends a signal to a "module". Modules can turn on,
> off or dim lights etc. The X-10 controllers and modules constitute a
> primitive network.
>
> X-10 Build quality
> X-10 is the company who created the first home automation products for the
> consumer. The technology was fairly advanced for its day, but that was
> back
> in the seventies and has seen little improvement since then. X-10 has
> developed new models over the years but they have lacked the polish of a
> product suitable for modern homes. Indeed the company seems more
> interested
> in quantity of sales versus quality. The plastics they chose degraded and
> discolored readily, circuit boards suffered from cold solder joints, wall
> switch contacts were fragile. There are newer models but the best ones
> always seem to be made by companies other than X-10. Any serious
> old-school
> X-10 home automator likely has a box of dead X-10 parts waiting to be
> recycled when the next module dies. Home Automation got off to a rocky
> start
> since X-10 was doomed to be a hobby for the technically inclined. Poor
> build quality was X-10s first real problem.