32 years using x-10
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Posted by greenpjs on May 1, 2008, 4:07 pm
Please log in for more thread options try this group today. Any input?) Background: I've been successfully using X-10 for 32 years now. Like many of you, I have had my share of issues but always managed to use filters and phase couplers to solve them. Again, like many of you, the last five years have seen the level of intermittent operation increase. Every new piece of electronics brought into the house usually requires another day of troubleshooting. I managed to swap circuits around in the breaker box such that all X-10 equipment is on one side of the box thereby eliminating the need for a phase coupler, but problems still occur. Of the 16 modules in use (all on one house code), 14 work all the time while the other 2 work most of the time. It's that "most of time" that drives me nuts. (By the way, our house is a little over 1300 sq ft in size plus a basement so I don't think my issues are caused by excessively long runs). The question: Is it time to upgrade to a new technology? Insteon, Z-Wave, Zigbee, etc all sound promising, but I have no real experience with them. What, in your opinion, is the right choice if I were to decide to start over? Which, if any, of the above has a chance to be around decades from now such that spare parts will still be available? Secondary question: Why is the new stuff so expensive? I have typically paid $10 - $15 for X-10 modules. (Although I have to admit that has been true all these years in spite of inflation). The new stuff seems to cost $50 to $70 per module. I just retired so I'm watching my spending... $69 is a lot of money for a wall switch. Multiply that by 16 or so modules and add a few controllers (manual controllers and a computer interface) and we are talking a lot of money. Maybe I should just buy a few more X-10 filters ;-) Final question: If I stay with X-10, do the signal boosters I see discussed here really work? Many of the devices are designed to solve the cross-phase issue which I don't have (as stated above, all my X-10 equipment is on one phase). While I do believe my problems are caused by low signal levels rather than noise, I believe the low signals are caused by each new electronic appliance cutting the signal just a little more. There isn't any one thing I can unplug which solves all the issues. Filters have solved the big issues (eg, Sony TV's), but I'm guessing that many minor issues are now adding up to an overall marginal situation. What would you do? Thanks in advance for your opinions! Pat | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by artie on May 1, 2008, 4:46 pm
Please log in for more thread options Hey Pat-- I've "only" been using X-10 for around 28 years... A friend who is in the high-end AV residential design/install business was visiting a few weeks ago, looked at what was on one wall, and told me I really should move off of X-10. My response? Why? It works, it's paid for, and the new stuff is a whole lot more expensive. Yes, the new stuff offers more capabilities -- capabilities I don't use. Turn the lights on around dusk; turn them off at bedtime. Turn them off a few more times during the night for kids who leave things on. Turn on outside lights during the holiday season. During weekdays in the school year, turn on some lights for a period in the morning. I've had the intermittent problem as well. Borrowing signal strength equipment shows that it's low signal strength, rather than hash-generating gremlins. My experience has been that most of my problems have been caused by the (EMI) filtering built into gadgets with switching power supplies -- which is just about everything these days. If you think about a gadget that generates noise, and about putting a filter between the gadget and the power line, there are two things you can do (singly or in combination). You can introduce a high impedance between the line and the gadget at everything other than the power line frequency. Or, you can introduce a low impedance across the gadget at everything but the power line frequency. The first approach doesn't let the noise pass to the line. The second approach shorts out the noise at the gadget. The problem (for us) is when a filter in a gadget also places a low impedance across the line at other than the power line frequency -- snuffing out our X-10 signals as well as any other noise on the line. The cure, for me, is to identify those devices and put them behind a plug-in filter (it's a Leviton part) that provides some isolation at X-10 frequencies. -- Namaste-- | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by BruceR on May 1, 2008, 6:47 pm
Please log in for more thread options I'm also a 28 year user of X10 and have had the same experiences. I
swapped most of my X10 stuff to Insteon and it is indeed very reliable but far more difficult to administer. Shortly after I did that Jeff Volp came out with his XTB line of X10 coupler/repeaters. Since the Insteon stuff works with X10 I installed the XTB-IIR and had excellent results - X10 signals reached parts of the house that had previously been "X10 sterile" even with ACT repeaters! I recently bought a very good Insteon controller so now I use a combination of the two tecnologies. In my new second home I am installing all X10 hardware (the stuff I took out from the other house) and an XTB-IIR with perfect results so far. For your case, you have a choice. Since everything is on one leg you could use the XTB which simply plugs in to any outlet and your controller plugs into it. However, for not too much more money, you can use the XTB-IIR which installs to both legs of the powerline and will give you ultimate flexibility. The key to this equipment is that it puts out an X10 signal that is 25 times greater than a standard controller and 4 times greater than any other repeater. That will blast through almost any noise and it eliminates the need to constantly add more repeaters. If you go with the XTB then you should also install a coupler just in case you want something on another leg. But if you can access both legs to make a 220 volt outlet that's the best choice. See it here: http://jeffvolp.home.att.net/xtb_files.htm greenpjs wrote: > (I posted this in alt.home.automation yesterday. I thought I would
> try this group today. Any input?) > > Background: > > I've been successfully using X-10 for 32 years now. Like many of you, > I have had my share of issues but always managed to use filters and > phase couplers to solve them. Again, like many of you, the last five > years have seen the level of intermittent operation increase. Every > new piece of electronics brought into the house usually requires > another day of troubleshooting. I managed to swap circuits around in > the breaker box such that all X-10 equipment is on one side of the box > thereby eliminating the need for a phase coupler, but problems still > occur. Of the 16 modules in use (all on one house code), 14 work all > the time while the other 2 work most of the time. It's that "most of > time" that drives me nuts. (By the way, our house is a little over > 1300 sq ft in size plus a basement so I don't think my issues are > caused by excessively long runs). > > > The question: > > > Is it time to upgrade to a new technology? Insteon, Z-Wave, Zigbee, > etc all sound promising, but I have no real experience with them. > What, in your opinion, is the right choice if I were to decide to > start over? Which, if any, of the above has a chance to be around > decades from now such that spare parts will still be available? > > > Secondary question: > > > Why is the new stuff so expensive? I have typically paid $10 - $15 > for X-10 modules. (Although I have to admit that has been true all > these years in spite of inflation). The new stuff seems to cost $50 > to $70 per module. I just retired so I'm watching my spending... $69 > is a lot of money for a wall switch. Multiply that by 16 or so > modules and add a few controllers (manual controllers and a computer > interface) and we are talking a lot of money. Maybe I should just buy > a few more X-10 filters ;-) > > > Final question: > > > If I stay with X-10, do the signal boosters I see discussed here > really work? Many of the devices are designed to solve the > cross-phase issue which I don't have (as stated above, all my X-10 > equipment is on one phase). While I do believe my problems are > caused by low signal levels rather than noise, I believe the low > signals are caused by each new electronic appliance cutting the signal > just a little more. There isn't any one thing I can unplug which > solves all the issues. Filters have solved the big issues (eg, Sony > TV's), but I'm guessing that many minor issues are now adding up to an > overall marginal situation. > > > What would you do? Thanks in advance for your opinions! > Pat | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by Robert Green on May 2, 2008, 10:46 am
Please log in for more thread options > (I posted this in alt.home.automation yesterday. I thought I would
> try this group today. Any input?) > > Background: > > I've been successfully using X-10 for 32 years now. Like many of you, > I have had my share of issues but always managed to use filters and > phase couplers to solve them. Again, like many of you, the last five > years have seen the level of intermittent operation increase. Every > new piece of electronics brought into the house usually requires > another day of troubleshooting. I managed to swap circuits around in > the breaker box such that all X-10 equipment is on one side of the box > thereby eliminating the need for a phase coupler, but problems still > occur. Of the 16 modules in use (all on one house code), 14 work all > the time while the other 2 work most of the time. It's that "most of > time" that drives me nuts. (By the way, our house is a little over > 1300 sq ft in size plus a basement so I don't think my issues are > caused by excessively long runs). Unfortunately, you're at the point where you need to spend money on a meter like the ESM1 to have even an inkling of what's happening on the powerline. Trying to diagnose X-10 problems via a binary "works/does't work" method is occasionally successful, but more often not. A meter will tell you whether you have a noise problem, a signal sucker problem, a bad transmitter, collision problems, etc. It should pay for itself in short order if you put any reasonable value on your time. > The question:
> > > Is it time to upgrade to a new technology? Insteon, Z-Wave, Zigbee, + > etc all sound promising, but I have no real experience with them. > What, in your opinion, is the right choice if I were to decide to > start over? Which, if any, of the above has a chance to be around > decades from now such that spare parts will still be available? You'll need a crystal ball to answer that question, but consider this. The 110VAC network has changed little in 100 years. I have table lamps from the '30s that work quite well today. X-10 has been around for 30+ years but none of the contenders has that sort of track record. When you eliminate the known problems, there's no reason for it not to last another 30 years. One thing to consider about low power RF controls is that in this ever more wireless world, your RF controls are more and more likely to get stepped on by a higher powered radio signal. This has already happened to one of the most expensive HA protocols on the market, Lutron RadioRA. They were forced to provide users with special gear (they refer to it as channel B) when users in NYC reported their systems no longer functioned. Nearly *ANY* RF protocol can get squashed like that and there's not a thing you can do to stop it except moving into a Faraday cage. X-10's powerline protocol, though saddled with its own issues, can be isolated from glitches or legit transmissions on the power grid by a "firewall" far more easily. With all the new RF spectrum sales and realignments along with the anti-terrorism efforts to thwart RF controlled devices, I've become very dubious of any RF system working well into the future, especially the low-powered unlicensed devices. > Secondary question:
> > > Why is the new stuff so expensive? I have typically paid $10 - $15 > for X-10 modules. (Although I have to admit that has been true all > these years in spite of inflation). The new stuff seems to cost $50 > to $70 per module. I just retired so I'm watching my spending... $69 > is a lot of money for a wall switch. Multiply that by 16 or so > modules and add a few controllers (manual controllers and a computer > interface) and we are talking a lot of money. Maybe I should just buy > a few more X-10 filters ;-) The X-10 cost is low because the patent has expired, the designs are already out there and the components used are incredibly cheap compared to the custom IC's found in the newer gear. Buying filters, an XTB and an X-10 meter is still way cheaper than upgrading even a modest system. With the big downturn in housing, I would expect one of the current players not to survive very much longer. Do you want to replace all your X-10 gear with "Zigwaveon" only to find you've been orphaned when they go out of business? I've seen that happen in the PC world and it makes the remaining spare parts as precious as gold because of their scarcity. Not a position I want to be in if a meter, some filters and an XTB could set things straight. > Final question:
> > > If I stay with X-10, do the signal boosters I see discussed here > really work? Many of the devices are designed to solve the > cross-phase issue which I don't have (as stated above, all my X-10 > equipment is on one phase). While I do believe my problems are > caused by low signal levels rather than noise, I believe the low > signals are caused by each new electronic appliance cutting the signal > just a little more. There isn't any one thing I can unplug which > solves all the issues. Filters have solved the big issues (eg, Sony > TV's), but I'm guessing that many minor issues are now adding up to an > overall marginal situation. You'd have to describe your installation in much greater detail for us to make a guess at what's ailing your setup, but I am guessing you've missed several signal suckers or noise generators. Got any CFL's or fluorescents running unfiltered? My first step would be to see if completely disconnecting them from the power cures your ills. Then I would buy a meter. There used to be a vendor who lent or rented them, but since I own a meter and an analyzer, I never needed that service. Maybe someone here remembers who has them. As for the XTB's working or not. The answer is emphatically "yes!" I suffered from all sorts of X-10 maladies before installing the XTB-IIR and now they've just vanished back into the blue hell they came from. I wish all problems had a similar magic bullet. -- Bobby G. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by greenpjs on May 2, 2008, 12:11 pm
Please log in for more thread options Bobby,
From one Mr. Green to another, thanks for your reply. I received a total of four replies (one via private email) and all of them recommended the XTB-IIR as the closest thing to a silver bullet there is. I think I will order one. (It will be fun building a kit again. Heathkit used to get a lot of business from me back in the day - stereo, TVs, ham radio.) Regarding a meter, I do have an ESM1, but it hasn't been very useful solving the latest round of problems. I am wondering if there isn't some sort of issue with frequency rather than strength. For example, I have two different RF transceivers. One is an older RR501. The other is a TM751. One works better than the other even though they provide similar signal strengths (according to the ESM1) when plugged in the same outlet. Could one be a little off the 120 kHz frequency? Perhaps some receivers are more sensitive to that than others. I wish I had an oscilloscope. Anyway, thanks to all who replied. You have been very helpful. Pat On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:46:40 -0400, "Robert Green" >> (I posted this in alt.home.automation yesterday. I thought I would
>> try this group today. Any input?) >> >> Background: >> >> I've been successfully using X-10 for 32 years now. Like many of you, >> I have had my share of issues but always managed to use filters and >> phase couplers to solve them. Again, like many of you, the last five >> years have seen the level of intermittent operation increase. Every >> new piece of electronics brought into the house usually requires >> another day of troubleshooting. I managed to swap circuits around in >> the breaker box such that all X-10 equipment is on one side of the box >> thereby eliminating the need for a phase coupler, but problems still >> occur. Of the 16 modules in use (all on one house code), 14 work all >> the time while the other 2 work most of the time. It's that "most of >> time" that drives me nuts. (By the way, our house is a little over >> 1300 sq ft in size plus a basement so I don't think my issues are >> caused by excessively long runs). >
>Unfortunately, you're at the point where you need to spend money on a meter >like the ESM1 to have even an inkling of what's happening on the powerline. >Trying to diagnose X-10 problems via a binary "works/does't work" method is >occasionally successful, but more often not. A meter will tell you whether >you have a noise problem, a signal sucker problem, a bad transmitter, >collision problems, etc. It should pay for itself in short order if you put >any reasonable value on your time. > >> The question:
>> >> >> Is it time to upgrade to a new technology? Insteon, Z-Wave, Zigbee, + >> etc all sound promising, but I have no real experience with them. >> What, in your opinion, is the right choice if I were to decide to >> start over? Which, if any, of the above has a chance to be around >> decades from now such that spare parts will still be available? >
>You'll need a crystal ball to answer that question, but consider this. The >110VAC network has changed little in 100 years. I have table lamps from the >'30s that work quite well today. X-10 has been around for 30+ years but >none of the contenders has that sort of track record. When you eliminate >the known problems, there's no reason for it not to last another 30 years. >One thing to consider about low power RF controls is that in this ever more >wireless world, your RF controls are more and more likely to get stepped on >by a higher powered radio signal. This has already happened to one of the >most expensive HA protocols on the market, Lutron RadioRA. They were forced >to provide users with special gear (they refer to it as channel B) when >users in NYC reported their systems no longer functioned. > >Nearly *ANY* RF protocol can get squashed like that and there's not a thing >you can do to stop it except moving into a Faraday cage. X-10's powerline >protocol, though saddled with its own issues, can be isolated from glitches >or legit transmissions on the power grid by a "firewall" far more easily. >With all the new RF spectrum sales and realignments along with the >anti-terrorism efforts to thwart RF controlled devices, I've become very >dubious of any RF system working well into the future, especially the >low-powered unlicensed devices. > >> Secondary question:
>> >> >> Why is the new stuff so expensive? I have typically paid $10 - $15 >> for X-10 modules. (Although I have to admit that has been true all >> these years in spite of inflation). The new stuff seems to cost $50 >> to $70 per module. I just retired so I'm watching my spending... $69 >> is a lot of money for a wall switch. Multiply that by 16 or so >> modules and add a few controllers (manual controllers and a computer >> interface) and we are talking a lot of money. Maybe I should just buy >> a few more X-10 filters ;-) >
>The X-10 cost is low because the patent has expired, the designs are already >out there and the components used are incredibly cheap compared to the >custom IC's found in the newer gear. Buying filters, an XTB and an X-10 >meter is still way cheaper than upgrading even a modest system. With the >big downturn in housing, I would expect one of the current players not to >survive very much longer. Do you want to replace all your X-10 gear with >"Zigwaveon" only to find you've been orphaned when they go out of business? >I've seen that happen in the PC world and it makes the remaining spare parts >as precious as gold because of their scarcity. Not a position I want to be >in if a meter, some filters and an XTB could set things straight. > >> Final question:
>> >> >> If I stay with X-10, do the signal boosters I see discussed here >> really work? Many of the devices are designed to solve the >> cross-phase issue which I don't have (as stated above, all my X-10 >> equipment is on one phase). While I do believe my problems are >> caused by low signal levels rather than noise, I believe the low >> signals are caused by each new electronic appliance cutting the signal >> just a little more. There isn't any one thing I can unplug which >> solves all the issues. Filters have solved the big issues (eg, Sony >> TV's), but I'm guessing that many minor issues are now adding up to an >> overall marginal situation. >
>You'd have to describe your installation in much greater detail for us to >make a guess at what's ailing your setup, but I am guessing you've missed >several signal suckers or noise generators. Got any CFL's or fluorescents >running unfiltered? My first step would be to see if completely >disconnecting them from the power cures your ills. Then I would buy a >meter. There used to be a vendor who lent or rented them, but since I own a >meter and an analyzer, I never needed that service. Maybe someone here >remembers who has them. > >As for the XTB's working or not. The answer is emphatically "yes!" I >suffered from all sorts of X-10 maladies before installing the XTB-IIR and >now they've just vanished back into the blue hell they came from. I wish >all problems had a similar magic bullet. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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> try this group today. Any input?)
>
> Background:
>
> I've been successfully using X-10 for 32 years now. Like many of you,
> I have had my share of issues but always managed to use filters and
> phase couplers to solve them. Again, like many of you, the last five
> years have seen the level of intermittent operation increase. Every
> new piece of electronics brought into the house usually requires
> another day of troubleshooting. I managed to swap circuits around in
> the breaker box such that all X-10 equipment is on one side of the box
> thereby eliminating the need for a phase coupler, but problems still
> occur. Of the 16 modules in use (all on one house code), 14 work all
> the time while the other 2 work most of the time. It's that "most of
> time" that drives me nuts. (By the way, our house is a little over
> 1300 sq ft in size plus a basement so I don't think my issues are
> caused by excessively long runs).