2 100amp panel coupler help needed

The CR230 is probably the ACT model you need. It's for X-10 while the CR234 is for A10 & X-10.

Here are a few links which might help.

http://www.worth>Dave,

Dan Lanciani, Like the others here I have been a fan of yours for over 9 years and thanks for looking at my problem. Phil suggested the following in this cut and paste from his email to me.

" As far as you question on "the 2 100amp panel installation ???", I wrote most of those old articles from 1996 through 2001. My responsibilities have since changed and I am no longer in that position.

However, having said that, let me see if I can give you some things to consider.

1. First, unless you know that you have a problem with noise or signals coming "onto" your house from the outside, I would not suggest using the filter-blocks.
2. If your two 100-amp panels are side-by-side and fed from the same transformer (and, most likely, the same meter), you should be able to treat them as one big 200 amp panel.
3. If you can (and you are willing to experiment, and you answered 'true' to the two conditions above), order a CR234 and have your electrician remove the two filter-blocks and the 6201, then install the CR234 into one of the panels. It probably will not matter which panel, but if I was forced to make a choice, I would put it on the panel with the most X-10 controlled devices.
4. Please be aware that your problem also could be noise or some other signal related issue, but buying a new CR234 is less expensive than buying (and then trying to learn how to use) the necessary test equipment. Plus, it is far less expensive than hiring me to troubleshoot it for you. Therefore, I am basing my recommendation only on the information you have provided.

Good luck, and I hope we are both right. "

As far as the difference when moving the 6201 from panel A to B the only thing I can think of is that CM15A and Comfort's Tw523 are located on circuits in panel A.

Dave,

As always appreciate you keeping up with this. There are 60+ recievers and all of them are X-10's. I also think the 6201 would ping pong with a CR234 also simply because I know first hand that they will do so with a simpler PR511 under certain conditions.

I will look up Tom Morgan on worthington's discussions and see if he has any input. I had read some of his articles and did not see an exact setup like this but I will ask him anyway and let him know of this discussion over here.

Frank,

Thanks again and as you look at this where would you suggest the Blocker be put in panel A, panel B or before the Y ????.

As I hear from others I will post their replies or excerpts of them here to keep everyone interested informed.

Thanks Again to all interested and concerned.

Carl Ford

Before the "Y" (as Dave illustrated) and in the closest panel to it.

Sorry for the double response. I guess I missed this on the "first pass"... :-)

Easy answer. The suggestion I made didn't involve connecting more "couplers". I suggested he remove one of his *blockers*. I think he already has all the "couplers" he needs. I also suggested connecting the X10 Pro surge suppressor and eliminating all his capacitors.

Frank, Thanks and I forgot to mention that I do have Levition's surge protectors on each 100 amp panel. They are a must out there due to the constant surges. In the old house you would loose a tv about every 3 years computer power supplies about every 2 years lots of bulbs. The salt plays heck with the power delivery on the island. Some evenings you can see a glow around some of the transformers up and down the streets. It's kind of pretty but also kind of eerie. The capacitors are only in the setup for testing purposes and as of now the "blockers" are disconnected from their breakers completely.

One other thing comes to mind I am 28 feet from the power lines and am at eye level with them on the 3rd floor. I had never realized that the mains were NOT insulated. I asked one of the CP&L workers about this and they said the salt would get under the insulation and make the lines deterriorate much faster than if they were bare.

Thanks again for your input.

Carl Ford

In article , snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com (Dave Houston) writes: | ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote: | | >You need to be careful mixing passive coupling and repeaters. Although | >I've traced only the CR230's circuit, I believe that most repeaters drive | >the two legs with carriers 180 degrees out of phase (presumably for the | >benefit of 220V-only receivers). Thus any passive coupling that doesn't | >flip the phase works against the repeater. Based on the cautions I've read | >I think that the 4851 also couples without flipping the phase, though this | >was not immediately obvious on casual inspection. | | If that's the case, wouldn't any incidental coupling from 220V ovens, | dryers, etc. work against the repeater.

Indeed it does, though no more so than any 120V load works against the signal on a single leg. The impedance of 220V loads at 120kHz isn't generally all that much lower than that of 120V loads. The problem comes when you try to create a low impedance path between phases with a big capacitor, tuned couplers, or what have you. As far as the repeater is concerned this is exactly like deliberately installing a "signal sucker" load.

| How many 220V X-10 receivers are there?

How many are there where? Apparently they are common in industry, but there are none in my house. For that reason I've been toying with the idea of modifying a CR230 to drive the legs in phase. I've repaired the unit with the bad power supply (if anyone cares, yes, the cap had leaked as well from the heat) so I have one to play with. It isn't completely trivial since the output driver circuit does not appear to be symmetrical.

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

Dan, If they were flipped 180 wouldn't reversing the the leads to the breakers (two legs of 220v) put them back ???? And if so shouldn't we be checking that on our setups as well.

Thanks,

Carl Ford

In article , snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com (Dave Houston) writes: | The CR230 is probably the ACT model you need. It's for X-10 while the CR234 | is for A10 & X-10.

The CR234 does have the (potentially useful) SCC connection and some configuration options to ignore repeated signals.

| Note that Ed Cheung wrote that ACT says not to use both the whole house | blocker and coupler/repeater but that he saw no problems while doing so.

I use them together as well (in the house with the annoying 200kHz noise). It's the least bad solution and it works reliably, but I think it's right on the edge. Hence my interest in modifying a repeater. I suppose I should first make absolutely sure that the blocker couples in phase.

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

In article , snipped-for-privacy@msn.com (carlford) writes: | Dan Lanciani, | Like the others here I have been a fan of yours for over 9 years and | thanks for looking at my problem. Phil suggested the following in this | cut and paste from his email to me. | | " As far as you question on "the 2 100amp panel installation ???", I | wrote most of those old articles from 1996 through 2001. My | responsibilities have since changed and I am no longer in that | position.

[...] | 2. If your two 100-amp panels are side-by-side and fed from the same | transformer (and, most likely, the same meter), you should be able to | treat them as one big 200 amp panel.

The fact that you can see a significant difference between connection to the two panels is what makes this difficult. It suggests that there is some impediment to the signal between the two panels. Assuming that you can't change this situation you won't be able to treat the two panels as if they were one.

You could try to figure out what is going on or just accept that there is significant (but not complete) isolation between the panels and work from there. This is really the worst possible case since without complete isolation it is very tricky to use multiple repeaters, and with poor coupling you really want something on each panel. I'd be very tempted to try the CA000 (with CR234) if it is still available.

| As far as the difference when moving the 6201 from panel A to B the | only thing I can think of is that CM15A and Comfort's Tw523 are located | on circuits in panel A.

That may well explain the functional differences, but the fact that there is a difference at all between two panels which I assume are connected by heavy (and not too long) cables to the same meter is troubling...

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

In article , snipped-for-privacy@msn.com (carlford) writes: | Dan, | If they were flipped 180 wouldn't reversing the the leads to the | breakers (two legs of 220v) put them back ????

I'm afraid not. It's their phase relative to each other that matters.

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

Dan, The the panels are both side by side and both feed from the bottom of the meter directly behind and in the middle of both panels. There is not but about 12 to 14 inches of cable beeding to each panel A and B. The difference i record by switching the 6201 from panel A to B is measured at the furtherest point from the sub panels and then at the outlets after those sub panels..

6201 Bridging Capacitor | | incoming-----+------Panel A----- Sub Panel A (Within 6 feet of panel) weak outlet 2 1/2 stories power | from A | (breakers) (breakers) | | +-----Panel B-------- Sub Panel B (3 stories up) weak outlet 3 stories from B (breakers) (breakers) | | Capacitor Capacitor

When the 6201 is in panel A (as pictured) the furtherest point is sub panel B (3rd floor) and then outlets on the opposite end of that floor that are the weakest. When the 6201 is in panel B the furtherest point is sub panel A (close to both Panel A and B) but with outlets 2 and 1/2 stories away and on the opposite ends of the house that are the weakest. Trying to guess in linear feet they are about the same distance to the furtherest point. I have tested with and without the caps in circuit and all combinations of caps in and out of circuit. The caps are for testing purposes only.

Total square feet in house is 4800 +

I do now understand about their phases being relative to each other coming from the couplers or repeaters.

Again Thanks for your input. I have not heard directly from Tom Morgan yet at Worthington but hope to do soon and will put his thoughts on the table also as I got the original 6201 from them some 7 years ago.

Carl Ford

Interesting.

shows this: Publisher: Silent Sevant Home Control; 2nd ed edition (1998) Language: English ASIN: B0006REPVW

and lists a couple copies available.

Does this reference deal quantitatively with X-10 signal issues, or does it use 'signal sucker' and similar language to qualitatively explain problems?

Kingery's articles started in 1996, and so are approximately contemporaneous.

Thanks ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

Someone asked me if the Surge protectors could be a problem. They are Leviton 4860's I think. I am not there now but will get the model number off of them sometime tomorrow. There is one installed on each

100 amp panel. I bought them when I started setting this house up at the same time I bought the 4851 blockers and the 6201 coupler repeater. They have never tripped and they are the one shot kind (if they go off they must be replaced). The led's on both of them are definately on and I assumed they are working, however: I never did try any test with them off. What do you all think ??? Do you know of these causing a problem in the past ??? I don't remember reading anything about a problem with them but since there are 2 of them and I'm not sure what is inside of them they might pose a problem, I suppose ???

Thanks again to everyone,

Carl Ford

Actually he uses what he terms as an "example home" to describe the operation and installation of X-10 Pro components. He doesn't once mention "signal sucker", although he uses other terms that are (I assume) synonymous. Since I purchased the manual in 1998, I've sort of used it as my "bible". I haven't experienced a single problem with any components I've installed (other than having to return a very vew defective items). Mind you my applications are more security related than home automation (flashing outside lights during an alarm or turning on different lights on a rotational basis to make it look like people are home when they're not, turning on lights remotely or during an entry delay and such like), but lately that's changed. It's really an excellent resource, packed full of illustrations and sample set-ups. I'd recommend it for anyone here without hesitation.

Dan,

Do you know whether it's possible to disable the passive coupl>>| Dan,

In article , snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com (Dave Houston) writes: | Dan, | | Do you know whether it's possible to disable the passive coupling of the | blocking couplers without affecting the blocking?

I never traced the full circuit, but intuitively I don't think it would be possible without adding active buffers.

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

I have not had any experience with the X10 blockers you are using but I have a 6000 sq. ft home that is fed with 2 200 amp panels. There is one sub panel. Each panel has a Leviton 51120-1 whole house surge suppresser on it. The feeds run from the meter which is around 100 ft from panels.

I built this home so I was able tell the electricians how to organize the panels. One of the feeds, the one with the sub panel, has all of the circuits that I don't control, appliances, hot water heaters, HVAC, etc. The other panel with the lighting, outlets, etc., has a passive X10 phase coupler on it.

I use PCS switches, numerous lamp & appliance modules and HCA to run the house.

This setup works very very well. I have tried a HCA-02 Leviton repeater and although it worked well from a signal level point of view they have a problem with certain sequences so I just went back to the passive coupler. From what I have heard the ACT repeaters to do not have this problem.

I am able to get a good X10 signal across to the second panel for a couple of outside light circuits that we had to put on that panel. Of course the X10 signal from my controller has to go out to the meter and back to get to the other panel but it does work.

I would recommend the following to start:

1) I am not clear on your whole house surge suppressers but put X10 friendly ones at each panel.

2) Put X10 passive couplers on each panel. What I mean by that is a passive coupler that is tuned to the X10 120 Khz frequency not just a cap that will pass a lot of noise as well.

3) Control the majority of your lighting from a controller located very close to the panels. For example, send the "switch on/off" signal to the controller and then let the controller turn the light on/off. For remote circuits this cuts in half the distance that the X10 signal has to go.

4) Of course do all of the standard stuff using filters to improve the signal.

4) If your panels are not well organized and you have to cross the panel boundary all of the time and it doesn't work reliably I see a couple of approaches to try. 1) use a controller for each panel and go controller to controller for programs that have to cross the panels. I assume the controllers are located at the panels so at least you only have the distance to the meter to cover not another long run of house wiring. 2) Use the ACT repeaters that support multiple repeaters and use one each panel.

Larry

I still haven't got my Surge Model numbers yet: however, I did go ahead and order an ACT CR-234 for installation later this week at which time I will be there to give the Surge model numbers.

Thanks for all input thus far and I will post my results ASAP.

I never did get a reply from Tom Morgan. Someone else at that site did also suggest the Cr-234.

Thanks again,

Carl Ford