2 100amp panel coupler help needed

Are these 100 amp panels fed off of one meter?? The blocker/couplers has to go on the first panel downstream from the meter and my X-10 design book states you should only use one. You might want to remove one of the blockers to see if the signal strength improves. Get rid of the capacitors. Install a surge suppressor.

What is Frank's (anonymous?) "X-10 design book" that "states you should only use one" ?

Why should anyone take that advice instead of Phil Kingery's from Advanced Control Technologies (ACT) who authoritatively goes into considerable detail on why and how to deploy multiple couplers?

See

Carl:

The 6201 is no longer made as best I know. Leastwise when mine failed -- taking down all x-10 in the house with it -- Leviton replaced it under warranty with a HCA02.

My experience and that of others is that the 6201, HCA02 and ACT's can all fail. So you can't assume that it is your topology that is wrong. Sometimes the most efficient trouble shooting is to swap questionable devices with "known-good" ones. This becomes expensive with couplers.

Yes, the ACT 134 is an amplifier as well as a coupler.

.. Marc Marc_F_Hult

Frank, yes one meter that Y's to both 100 amp panels. Marc, the 6201 I have is working. I have tried it with and without it and there IS a big difference:however, I guess my big question is whether or not a "real" amplified signal would help on the furtherest ends. The two whole house blockers that are now turned off and are installed in each 100 amp panel might also cause a problem if i move to

I don't have a successful 2 panel/subpanel setup but I do wonder why you have two whole house blocking couplers. They are intended to block X-10 from entering or leaving so, when on, they would tend to attenuate X-10 signals from one panel from reaching the other panel. I think you need a single 4851 upstream of the Y.

Then you _may_ need a coupler repeater in each main panel but I think the first step is to eliminate one 4851 and then re-evaluate things.

You say you get strong signals with an ESM1 in most locations. The weak locations may or may not be related to poor coupling. You may have devices that are attenuating the signals there. While the larger a house, the harder it is to get good signal everywhere this is not directly related to the longer wiring runs. Studies have shown there's minimal attenuation that can be attributed to the length of the wire run but there is a correlation between the number of J-box terminations and attenuation due to the increased inductance of those terminations.

The HCA02-10E is a coupler/repeater (the repeated signal is 5Vpp) but it has been problematic >Frank, yes one meter that Y's to both 100 amp panels.

Dave,Thanks for your reply and I have been a fan of yours for over 9 years. The original electrician had thought in the beginning that since the Y from the meter to the 2 100 amp panels that both would need to be blocked since the Y originates at the meter base. He thought that asignal from next door might come in on the other Y leg (not the other leg of the 220v). It sounded feasible at that time. The PR511 can be lived with or without so that is not a problem. The J-box terminations are many so I'm sure that leads to quite a bit of attenuation. I have run the home "barefoot" (all normal noisy items disconnected and then some that i thought might cause some noise or suck signals disconnected) while testing with the ESM-1. I have also moved the 6201 to the other 100 amp panel and it just drops the signal down on the other end of the house. Since I am not familiar with the HCA02-10E and am going by this link as the information on it

Carl Ford

Carl,

Finding details on what's inside these Leviton devices is difficult. The page you referenced has nothing on the 4851.

I think you need...

METER -> 4851 --+--> PANEL A | +--> PANEL B

(view with fixed fonts)

Then you may or may not need couplers or coupler/repeaters in both main panels but I would go at this step-by-step.

Have you tried reach>Dave,Thanks for your reply and I have been a fan of yours for over 9

I'm surprised that 6201's are still being sold. When my 6201 died in January 2001, I was told by the Leviton rep who did the screening for RMA's that the he 6201 was superceded/obsolete and the HCA02-10E was the replacement and much better. (There was about a 2-fold _reduction_ in price from the 6201 to the HCA02-10E so an explanation was needed for why I was being sent something that cost 1/2 what it was replacing ...)

Note that at least some 6201's have the quirk that they will sometimes won't start/train/boot properly if the wrong phase is energized first. This was one of the things I had to check out before Leviton's rep would issue an RMA. One of the leads/breakers needs to switched on first to avoid the problem entirely which obviously doesn't happen when the power comes back on unattended after an outage. So with two 6201's (all else equal) you only have a one-in-four chance of everything coming up right.

You write that you have low measured signal strength in some places. Have you tried switching circuits one-by-one at the breaker panel(s) to determine whether removing particular circuits has more effect than others? The length of the wires themselves is not nearly as much an issue in terms of signal loss as are devices connected to them that have a low impedance at 120khz ("signal suckers". This is where having a circuit diagram is very helpful. There may be equipment plugged in that you are unaware of or not suspect to be causing a problem.

Yes, the HCA02-10E amplifies according to Leviton: the HCA02-10E "also amplifies and repeats command signals to maintain proper signal strength throughout the DHC network".

HTH ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

Dave, thanks again and here is how it is now

Meter -------- + ------- 4851 ------panel A ------6201 (connecting both legs of this panel)---sub pnl A | | --------4851 -------panel B -------- Sub Panel B

The link i referred to is the information on the HCA02-10E that you suggested might help and I was wondering about the use of two of these units one in each panel and the ping pong effect it might start.

Marc,

They (the 6201's) are still in stock in some places. I'm sure they are just NOS though. I have been running "barefoot" just normal (not flourscent, halogen, or HID fixtures) and nothing else. Tv's and all electronics, surge supressors, computers, Wall warts or anything plugged in anywhere. Trying to alleviate any potential problems. It seems that some companies claim they amplify when in reality they just pass to the other leg of the 220 feed. And I was looking to amplify the signal to the sub panel B as that is the weakest point.

Thanks again Carl Ford

Marc, "Uncle Phil" which I had emailed last week did email me directly and has given me some input also as of this afternoon. Since you referenced him on your website I thought I would let you know he is still around at ACT. I did like your CM-11A, panel of sorts setup. That is a good idea and I will probably copy some of that setup in mine when i get through running my ESM-1 from one end of the house to the other.

Thanks, Carl Ford

That Leviton page also lists all of their current product line including a different blocking coupler.

I still recommend correcting the problem caused by the two 4851s before thinking about whether you need one or more HCA02-10Es. Leviton does recommend one for each panel. I've not heard of two HCA02-10Es playing "ping-pong" but there have been ample posts about one HCA02-10E flooding the line with spurious commands. Most have had no problems while others have had no end of problems with the HCA02-10E. That's one more reason to get the

Dave, I have both 4851's off (disconnected) at this time other than them physically slipped over the Feeds. So I'm pretty sure they are NOT blocking anything at this time whether coming from inside or out. Now is to figure the best coupler/repeater/amplifier to to the job. Phil Kingery did email me directly on their ACT line and suggested one CR-234 on panel A and suggests as you to do without any 4851's unless that i am sure there is an outside signal coming in thus treating the 2

Carl Ford

Carl,

I understand that they are off at this point.

My point is that they were never installed correctly and this could have been a part of the signal strength problem.

One correctly installed 4851 _might_ obviate the need for anything else. We won't really know until the 4851 installation is corrected.

OTOH, if you feel there's no need to block external signals, an HCA02-10E or

Dave, I do understandand that they are probably installed incorrectly (the

This current setup gives me the best coverage with a few circuits on sub panel B getting only a weak signal. This is the latest configuration. Most X10 controllers reside on this panel. One Cm15a and a Tw523 that communicates from a Comfort Security System.

If the 6201 is placed in Panel B then I get some weak signals on Sub panel A. This configuration was the worst one.

I even split the 6201 leads (observing the correct "polarity") and attached one lead to each Panel A and B. This worked fairly well signal strenght wise but very unreliable in that I had to repeat commands a lot. Any macro's for cm11'a or cm15's had to have the units placed into them in a certain order else those units would not respond. Here I also had the 4851's both on as I used this setup for over a year. There is little or no difference strength wise with the 4851's in or out of circuit here.

The capacitors were only put in after moving the 6201 to Panel A and don't do much at this point either.

As I read back over this post it seems that amplification is needed as no matter where I place the 6201 there is always a weak end out there somewhere. Again this is without any electronics, chargers, computers, cordless phones plugged in. The Air handlers are the only appliances on so the normal noise makers or "suckers" are off line in the above instances.

Thanks,

Carl Ford

Carl,

The 4851 will only block signals from the neighbor sharing your transformer. Anything else should not get through the transformer.

However, the description of the 4851 says it also acts as a passive coupler so it might help with signal strength as well.

The best setup would probably be one properly installed 4851 and then a coupler/repeater in each main panel. If you still have problems with sub-panel B, maybe a BoosterLinc from SmartHome will address that. I believe Bruce Robin has used them successfully to address similar issues.

Given that many pe>Dave,

Dave, Thanks again. I had installed the caps to bridge what the 4851's would not be coupling as they are off line. Do you think one would do or should I get two. Is the CR134 enough or the CR234 better. This is here in the US and a 110v-220v system split phase. Any you are right about being a vacation home but I am there a lot and really enjoy messing with it. It talks and calls me when things are not right. Small residential community on an island off the NC coast.

I reeeally appreciate your input. You must live on your computer as you are all over the place in HA and I know that you have been since I started messing with X10 over 9 years ago.

Merry Christmas yes I said it and don't care if it's politically correct or not. If this is not your holiday of choice then I hope you have a happy one when it's your time. We all should be happy for each other and a little more understanding instead of being defensive.

Carl Ford

It's called X-10 Pro Design Book, Published by "Silent Servant Home Control, Inc." Authored by Robert N. Bucceri.

Thanks for the links, Marc.

| 6201 Bridging Capacitor | | | | incoming-----+------Panel A----- Sub Panel A (Within 6 feet of panel | A) | | (breakers) (breakers) | | | | | +-----Panel B-------- Sub Panel B (3 stories up) | (breakers) (breakers) | | | | Capacitor Capacitor

You need to be careful mixing passive coupling and repeaters. Although I've traced only the CR230's circuit, I believe that most repeaters drive the two legs with carriers 180 degrees out of phase (presumably for the benefit of 220V-only receivers). Thus any passive coupling that doesn't flip the phase works against the repeater. Based on the cautions I've read I think that the 4851 also couples without flipping the phase, though this was not immediately obvious on casual inspection.

I'm puzzled that you see a significant difference when moving the repeater from panel A to panel B if the 4851s are out of the picture. Taking this at face value (always risky :) you might want to try a CR234 on one panel (whichever hears the house best) connected by its SCC terminals to a CA000 on the other panel. The CA000 is a dumb output driver. The two problems are (1) I don't know who actually sells the CA000 at this point and (2) I assume Phil Kingery would have mentioned this idea to you if he thought it was appropriate.

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

If that's the case, wouldn't any incidental coupling from 220V ovens, dryers, etc. work against the repeater.

How many 220V X-10 receivers are there?

This is getting beyond my skill level. It's difficult to find adequate technical documentation on these devices. It looks like Leviton has discontinued the 4851 and now offers the 6284 which appears to be identical to the X10Pro PZZ01. The most I can find on any of these is that they block X10 from entering and leaving and also passively couple up to 3 phases. Leviton does recommend a coupler/repeater for each panel but whether the

ACT would probably recommend a single CR234 coupler/repeater. I think the CR134 is for 3 phase systems only so it's not applicable here. I don't know whether a properly installed 4851 would create problems for their CR234. I think you need to ask Phil which coupler/repeater and whether or not you should keep a properly installed 4851.