Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software

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Hello.

I'm using a Linksys WRT54G with one wired PC and one wireless laptop. Do I
need to run firewall software also? I had been using EZ Armor FW and Virus,
but the desktop slowed to a crawl. After removing the firewall software
(accidently), it runs normally again. This PC isn't exactly a powerhouse,
but it's OK for my needs.

How bad is it (and how dumb am I) if I don't re-install the software FW? Do
I really need it, seeing as how both PCs are running behind the router?

Thanks, from an obvious amateur.



Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
R.User wrote:
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If you're not concerned about someone hacking the LAN on the wireless
side of the router and hacking a computer on the LAN wired or wireless,
then you don't need a personal FW.

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
R.User wrote:
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No. Why do you think so?

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Not at all.

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Even if there wasn't any router, there would be no need for it. Where
exactly should such a need come from?

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
HAAAaaa!!

Ok, Ok... Now that I'm a certified nitwit, and having received the "1D10T"
error message, I'm going to reinstall both.

Thanks.


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Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
R.User wrote:
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You can forget about what SG the lip dribbling specialist is talking
about. His lips cut deep with nothing supporting his lip drivel, pay him
no mind.

He is no help to anyone as usual.

It's a sad situation for him and the NG as he sits there personally
slobbering waiting for someone to post about a personal FW. <g>

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:15:40 -0400, R.User wrote:

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1) You don't need a personal firewall when you are behind a NAT device
that provides a private network without anything port forwarded.

2) Your wireless needs to be secured, if not already, to keep outsiders
off your Laptop and desktop - if you have exposed your wireless without
locking it down you have also exposed your laptop and your PC.

3) The windows non-firewall included in XP SP2 will be more than enough,
but, if you take your laptop to other networks (school, work, friends) it
won't be enough in most cases.

4) If you use your laptop on OTHER networks you really need to learn how
to check the Windows TCP/IP Settings, disable File/Printer sharing when
you are not home, and how to adjust/check the Windows XP SP2 non-firewall
settings for "Exceptions".

5) More important than a firewall, when behind a NAT router, is the
Antivirus software and your security methods - like not running as an
Administrator (best to run as a limited user), installing Fire Fox, not
using Outlook Express or Outlook if you use POP3 for email....

As you can see from the reply you got from SG, it's worthless, doesn't
explain anything, and has no content worth reading.

Let us know if you can do the above 5 items.


--
Leythos
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Leythos wrote:
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That is not conclusive: The NAT does block (most) incoming connections.
The XP SP2 firewall does block all (most) incoming connections when
configured with no exceptions.

Where is the difference which explains why something else then the XP
SP2 FW is needed elsewhere?
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Again contradictory to 3): if you think you need something else than the
XP SP2 firewall in other networks and you are running a other brand
"non-firewall" software then the recommendation should be to check that
the XP SP2 firewall is turned off and the 3rd party "non-firewall" is
on. Two or more firewalls running on a computer result on average in
less security then a single one as it is unpredicted what actually is
blocked and what not and by which firewall which will jeopardize the
consistency of and state table in any firewall (as they are generally
stateful).

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Most important to keep your system up-to-date and reduce the number of
software on your computer. The less software you are running the less is
vulnerable. The less software the less you have to check for updates
manually if it does not come with automatic updates. Subscribe to some
good security notification lists like the one from Microsoft or US-Cert.
Then you get timely notification of updates and you can update very quickly.

If you do all this you are very likely that your AntiVirus will never
ever report anything relevant and thus will prove itself superfluous.

Gerald

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:43:57 +0900, Gerald Vogt wrote:

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It blocks intrusions, but what holes does it have that have not yet been
exposed? What about the next one that's found and exposes the system?

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The NAT router is the better first line of defense when it can be used,
but, as the OP mentions wireless, well, you can't NAT a wireless
connection - what I mean is that the wireless connection is from the
router to the laptop, there is no intermediate NAT between the wireless
and the laptop - so, anything that makes it to the wireless also makes it
to the laptop unless it's got some form of localized firewall.

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I never mentioned another firewall application, not a single one, not even
suggesting it. Stop playing the old/tired mantra.

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So you mean that if you access email, through POP3, that you don't need
antivirus? So, you mean that if you download via FTP or other, since the
net has more than just MS and Cert, that you don't really need AV?

Come one, AV is mandatory, even as a limited user, for anyone running an
OS that can be exploited by malware.


--
Leythos
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Leythos wrote:
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Vulnerablities which have not yet been exposed are always a problem. But
you have the same problem with a NAT router, too. For the XP SP2
firewall is has been very much tested. NAT routers don't undergo that
throrough tests simply because they are not used so much out there.

Plus: it is in the nature of NAT that there is a lot of guessing
involved which ports to open and which not. The router must let response
packets in and must figure out where to send it. Thus, if you use a
packet sniffer or use some logging functions on the computer you'll see
that some unsolicited packets occassionally get through.

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The XP SP2 FW with no exceptions on a computer directly connected to the
internet is protecting the computer better than a NAT router. NAT does
not provide the protection like a properly setup packet filter.

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That does not explain why the computer would need another (different)
firewall from the XP SP2 FW when it is connected to other networks.

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Well you wrote: "The windows non-firewall included in XP SP2 will be
more than enough, but, if you take your laptop to other networks school,
work, friends) it won't be enough in most cases.". If it is not a 3rd
party firmware then what else do you need? You don't explain it. I have
guess you have thought of a 3rd party firmware. If it is not, then you
really have to explain what would fill the "not enough" if the computer
is in other networks.

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I access my e-mails through pop3 and imap. I don't need antivirus. Why
should I need antivirus? For what? The antivirus usually does not show
any useful messages. All the antivirus potentially did was damaging my
mail folders when the mail program downloaded an old blaster from my
pop3 box and annoyed me with some 20 virus access warnings (which I had
to allow each time) until I was able to delete the virus e-mail from my
Inbox and emptied the trash. The computer was at no time at any danger
still the antivirus will give you a hard time to do what you are
supposed to do with an virus e-mail: DELETE.

And what should I donwload via FTP for which I need an antivirus? Can
you be more specific?

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No. I don't have AV nor FW. I run as limited user. I don't know why it
should be mandatory. As there is no 100% security anything can
potentially be exploited by malware. But the best protection against
malware is still me. As I am better than some AV which well slows down
my computer it is a easy choice for me.

Gerald

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:43:20 +0900, Gerald Vogt wrote:
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You don't know what you are talking about. A typical SOHO NAT router, like
the Linksys BEFSR41, provides more protection for a single PC than Windows
XP firewall does.

For most users that have more than one computer, rather than using fixed
or dynamic public IP's for each computer/node, even a typical SOHO NAT
router provides more protection than Windows XP SP2 firewall.

Only a fool would believe that the Windows firewall provides more/better
protection for a single PC than a typeical NAT router.


--
Leythos
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Leythos wrote:
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Sorry, but if you cannot explain why that would be so how should any
fool understand your point?

What is the "more" in protection a WRT54G (which we are talking about
here, don't we) with standard firmware (not a third party firmware)
provides over a single or multiple windows PCs with a XP SP2 firewall
set with no exceptions allowed and connected directly to the internet?

You just say NAT is better the SP2 FW but you never explain why. You
give no arguments why that would be so. I have tried to explain the
reasons for my statement (which you have not cited).

And whenever I see someone whose only "arguments" are like "it is
obvious" or "only a fool" I get very suspicious...

Thus would you please explain?

Gerald

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:13:59 +0900, Gerald Vogt wrote:

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I did give reasons, you just ignore them.

1) Holes in the XP Firewall that may or may not be present.

2) Holes in the firewall (XP SP2) put there by accident, by applications,
by users that don't understand.

3) File and printer sharing enabled on a public connection....

The typical SOHO NAT router, by default, does not suffer any of those
problems.

Are you really that ignorant of the modern NAT Routers that vendors
mistakenly call Firewalls?


--
Leythos
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Leythos wrote:
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The may or may not be holes in NAT routers. Where is the difference? You
rely on the proper implementation of the XP firewall or the NAT router.

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The XP SP2 FW set to no exception with the user running as limited user
cannot be changed by accident or intentionally to allow any application
or file sharing on any connection.

And "users that don't understand" are no argument in a comparison what
is objectively better. If you want to talk about the users and what they
do we would first have to define what "users" we are talking about,
their knowledge and willingness to learn.

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I am absolutely not ignorant. I have several and I even know what they
are running inside. I also know that NAT as concept is bound to have
troubles at times, in particular if you are having many computers behind
the NAT and you have heavy use of UDP to a few servers. It is easier
with TCP but even then there are times when packets go through
unsolicited (which occasionally makes a PFW running on a computer behind
the NAT router think it is attacked and blocks everything).

Gerald

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:51:45 +0900, Gerald Vogt wrote:
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Um, you shoot yourself in the foot - if a simple NAT router, with a
limited amount of code, has "troubles" then a complex amount of code like
the Windows XP SP2 firewall would be subject to "troubles" too.

I've been using firewalls (appliances) for years and have never seen them
"leak", and every one of them uses NAT as part of their routing methods.


--
Leythos
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Leythos wrote:
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He? The NAT router runs a packet filter, NAT, and much more in a
package. The XP SP2 is only a packet filter. No NAT. No flaky "access
restrictions". No port forwarding.

Gerald

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:03:08 +0900, Gerald Vogt wrote:

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If my computer, running the OS and apps was limited to XP SP2 Firewall you
might have a point, but, you can't run the XP SP2 firewall without XP.

The NAT router does not run a zillion line OS, does not run zillions of
lines of code in applications....

Try again champ.

 
 
--  
Leythos
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Leythos wrote:
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Yes. And? What is your point? Running an application like MS Word on the
computer will severely affect the function of the firewall? Run
PowerPoint and the firewall dies and exposes the whole interface?

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And running some crappy code on a crappy cheap router with crappy
hardware is so much more reliable? I haven't seen a standard consumer
router where the firmware is not full of bugs (which affect the actual
normal operation) and where occasionally having a whole hardware series
with a fairly high return due to hardware issues. There is a reason why
a Cisco or 3com SOHO router costs 10 or 20 times as much as a Netgear,
Linksys, or D-Link. Only a part of that is due to mass production.

I would not want to bet on whether it is so much more likely the XP SP2
FW will be affected from load on a computer than some cheap router.

Also: suppose there is new vulnerability in the MS TCP/IP stack or FW
which allows elevated code execution. You can expect to have that fixed
quickly. The stack is one of the core components of communication.
Suppose a vulnerability is found in Linux TCP/IP stack. The fix will be
available very quickly, too, but how long will it take until the Linux
based routers have new firmware available and are updated?

Gerald



Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Gerald Vogt wrote:
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I would say that routers are used more and more by those who are
informed. Routers do come with SPI (Statefull Packet Inspection), look
it up if you don't know what it means.

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Not with any router that's running SPI.
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Do you know what SPI is?

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You have not explained why the XP FW it's better. XP's FW may be on par
with a NAT router that's running SPI.

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You can't read and understand English.

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Well, the AV that I use has IMON (Internet Monitor) that will detect
anomalies coming in the TCP connection, stop it and allow me to
terminate the connection. This allows be to use an email proxy client
application to go to the  ISP's email server and delete the suspicious
email. The email never reaches my machines.

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An infected or dubious file can be downloaded from a FTP site. Do you
think it cannot happen?
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That's you. You make your own bed and you lay in it. One doesn't rely on
detection software like a crutch, but they don't hurt in the prevention.

For a machine that has a direct connection to the modem and to the
Internet, a user would be some kind of fool not to run what an AV and
some kind of PFW/personal packet filter or XP's FW/personal packet
filter, if using the XP O/S or some other MS NT based O/S.

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Mr. Arnold wrote:
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Check again.


The XP SP2 FW is SPI, too.

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Even that you cannot explain.

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But why do you want to download the dubious file in the first place?

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I connect my laptop with XP SP2 FW with no exception to public hotspots.
Nothing is happending. I did that before when I still had PFW and AV on
it. None of them ever reported anything relevant for a couple of years.
All they did well was slowing down the computer.

Gerald

Re: Linksys WRT54G and Firewall software
Gerald Vogt wrote:
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I don't have to check as I have already experienced an attack coming
through a NAT router that Blackice stopped at the machine level, when
Linksys removed SPI from the BEFW11s4 router years ago that I used years
ago. Prior to that and the router was running with SPI in the firmware,
there were no attacks that BI detected.

That's why I went to a FW appliance and dropped the NAT router, because
it didn't have SPI and couldn't stop outbound traffic, if need be.


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So?

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I don't see anything coming from you either, and on top if that, I
didn't make the statement.
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Because one doesn't know it was a dubious file in the first place. And
you take the word *you* out of it, because I don't need or want to do
anything.

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That's you, the world is not made up of you(s) nor are all public spots
the same.

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