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Posted by jaydee on August 21, 2004, 2:14 pm
Please log in for more thread options must contain a full/max current and then the appliance only uses what it needs... right? Does the appliance then reduce it? A simple lamp lightbulb uses very little but doesn't contain any electronics that would do this. So how does it use only a few watts and what happens to the rest? Secondly, the electric meter and bill indicates watts used. How does this work? This seems to imply that the current is always flowing in and out like a two-way road and the meter measures the difference (unlike all the water analogies that flow into a dead-end). Thanks Jay. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by John Larkin on August 21, 2004, 3:02 pm
Please log in for more thread options wrote: To amplify JFs comments... Think of the power coming into your house as a rotating shaft. (Factories actually used to have one big rotating shaft from a water wheel or steam engine, and it ran everything.) If it spins freely with no load, no energy is taken and the power bill is zero. Any device can be connected to the shaft (they used to use belts or gears) and it can use all the horsepower it wants or needs. A mechanical device uses torque, and the power it gobbles is torque times speed. An electrical system has wires (== shaft), voltage (== rotation of shaft), and loads take as much current (==torque) as they need. The price you pay is voltage * current * time * some_dollar_factor, because that quantity represents how much fuel the utility had to burn to make that much energy. A low resistance load is like a high-torque load. It may even pull the line voltage down a bit, just like a big load might slow down the drive shaft some. I like that better than the water pressure analogy. John | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by John Fields on August 21, 2004, 6:54 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:02:07 -0700, John Larkin
>To amplify JFs comments...
> >Think of the power coming into your house as a rotating shaft. >(Factories actually used to have one big rotating shaft from a water >wheel or steam engine, and it ran everything.) If it spins freely with >no load, no energy is taken and the power bill is zero. Any device can >be connected to the shaft (they used to use belts or gears) and it can >use all the horsepower it wants or needs. A mechanical device uses >torque, and the power it gobbles is torque times speed. > >An electrical system has wires (== shaft), voltage (== rotation of >shaft), and loads take as much current (==torque) as they need. The >price you pay is voltage * current * time * some_dollar_factor, >because that quantity represents how much fuel the utility had to burn >to make that much energy. > >A low resistance load is like a high-torque load. It may even pull the >line voltage down a bit, just like a big load might slow down the >drive shaft some. > >I like that better than the water pressure analogy. --- Yeah, me too. The only thing that isn't taken care of is the oscillatory nature of the AC, which would correspond to an oscillating shaft coming into your house. For heaters and lamps it wouldn't matter, you just grab the shaft and friction does the trick, no matter which way it's going, but to get the unidirectional rotation you need to run compressors and simulate motors you'd need some kind of a mechanical converter. Maybe like those little manually propelled railroad cars with the push-pull bars used? -- John Fields | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by John Larkin on August 21, 2004, 5:40 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:54:54 -0500, John Fields
>On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:02:07 -0700, John Larkin
> > >>To amplify JFs comments...
>> >>Think of the power coming into your house as a rotating shaft. >>(Factories actually used to have one big rotating shaft from a water >>wheel or steam engine, and it ran everything.) If it spins freely with >>no load, no energy is taken and the power bill is zero. Any device can >>be connected to the shaft (they used to use belts or gears) and it can >>use all the horsepower it wants or needs. A mechanical device uses >>torque, and the power it gobbles is torque times speed. >> >>An electrical system has wires (== shaft), voltage (== rotation of >>shaft), and loads take as much current (==torque) as they need. The >>price you pay is voltage * current * time * some_dollar_factor, >>because that quantity represents how much fuel the utility had to burn >>to make that much energy. >> >>A low resistance load is like a high-torque load. It may even pull the >>line voltage down a bit, just like a big load might slow down the >>drive shaft some. >> >>I like that better than the water pressure analogy. >
>--- >Yeah, me too. > >The only thing that isn't taken care of is the oscillatory nature of >the AC, which would correspond to an oscillating shaft coming into >your house. For heaters and lamps it wouldn't matter, you just grab >the shaft and friction does the trick, no matter which way it's going, >but to get the unidirectional rotation you need to run compressors and >simulate motors you'd need some kind of a mechanical converter. Maybe >like those little manually propelled railroad cars with the push-pull >bars used? Right, it's not a great mathematical analogy to AC. And a shaft has "inductance" (torsional flex) and "capacitance" (mass) but no equivalent of resistance, unless you make it out of taffy. If you apply a sudden twist to a long shaft, it propagates just like a step on a transmission line. I did design a mechanical full-wave rectifier once, so a ship shaft rotation indicator would count revs in both directions. It used a couple of shafts and some belts, and some really cool one-way mechanical couplings that look just like bearings and act like diodes. The MEs were impressed. John | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posted by John Fields on August 21, 2004, 10:59 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:40:37 -0700, John Larkin
>On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:54:54 -0500, John Fields
> >>On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:02:07 -0700, John Larkin
>> >> >>>To amplify JFs comments...
>>> >>>Think of the power coming into your house as a rotating shaft. >>>(Factories actually used to have one big rotating shaft from a water >>>wheel or steam engine, and it ran everything.) If it spins freely with >>>no load, no energy is taken and the power bill is zero. Any device can >>>be connected to the shaft (they used to use belts or gears) and it can >>>use all the horsepower it wants or needs. A mechanical device uses >>>torque, and the power it gobbles is torque times speed. >>> >>>An electrical system has wires (== shaft), voltage (== rotation of >>>shaft), and loads take as much current (==torque) as they need. The >>>price you pay is voltage * current * time * some_dollar_factor, >>>because that quantity represents how much fuel the utility had to burn >>>to make that much energy. >>> >>>A low resistance load is like a high-torque load. It may even pull the >>>line voltage down a bit, just like a big load might slow down the >>>drive shaft some. >>> >>>I like that better than the water pressure analogy. >>
>>--- >>Yeah, me too. >> >>The only thing that isn't taken care of is the oscillatory nature of >>the AC, which would correspond to an oscillating shaft coming into >>your house. For heaters and lamps it wouldn't matter, you just grab >>the shaft and friction does the trick, no matter which way it's going, >>but to get the unidirectional rotation you need to run compressors and >>simulate motors you'd need some kind of a mechanical converter. Maybe >>like those little manually propelled railroad cars with the push-pull >>bars used? >
> >Right, it's not a great mathematical analogy to AC. And a shaft has >"inductance" (torsional flex) and "capacitance" (mass) but no >equivalent of resistance, unless you make it out of taffy. --- Don't you have it backwards? That is, since mass fights anything trying to make it, or stop it, from moving, isn't that like inductance, which fights tooth and nail to keep any change of current through it from happening? And isn't torsional flex like capacitance, which will absorb as much energy as you can push into it until it starts to fill up and fight back? Also, doesn't it have resistance? No matter what you make it out of it'll still get hot if you flex it, I think. Just like a cap has ESR and a choke has winding resistance to contend with, a shaft has grain boundaries which rub against each other and and spoil what would otherwise be a perfect Q. --- >If you apply a sudden twist to a long shaft, it propagates just like a
>step on a transmission line. --- Yes, nice. And the shaft will have a characteristic impedance, just like a transmission line, but I think those guys call it its "moment of inertia" --- >I did design a mechanical full-wave rectifier once, so a ship shaft
>rotation indicator would count revs in both directions. It used a >couple of shafts and some belts, and some really cool one-way >mechanical couplings that look just like bearings and act like diodes. >The MEs were impressed. --- I'm sure, but wouldn't a magnet and a reed switch or two (back then ;) have done the same thing and gotten rid of the relatively low-rel mechanical parts? -- John Fields | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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>must contain a full/max current and then the appliance only uses what
>it needs... right?
>
>Does the appliance then reduce it? A simple lamp lightbulb uses very
>little but doesn't contain any electronics that would do this. So how
>does it use only a few watts and what happens to the rest?
>
>Secondly, the electric meter and bill indicates watts used. How does
>this work? This seems to imply that the current is always flowing in
>and out like a two-way road and the meter measures the difference
>(unlike all the water analogies that flow into a dead-end).
>
>Thanks Jay.