Re: Even Low Efficiency Energy Storage Devices Become Competitive With Spiraling Fuel Costs
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Posted by The Trucker on August 13, 2008, 10:20 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:22:56 -0700, NoEinstein wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:36:15 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>There are just an amazing amount of new battery possibilities when
vehicles
>> >>>>>>finally move away from the inefficient, polluting, and heavy ICEs, and
>> >>>>>>towards an era of clean electric drive. >>
>> >>>>> Except that everything else, so far, is less efficient, more
>> >>>>> polluting, and heavier. Not to mention way more expensive. >>
>> >>>>This is not true.
>>
>> >>>>Electric drive is 4X more efficient (not even counting regenerative
braking), zero-pollution at the tailpipe (it has none), and is
>> >>>>much lighter than an ICE.
>>
>> >>> Only if the electricity magically comes from somewhere free, and you
>> >>> lug enough batteries for 20 miles of travel. >>
>> >>> But the electricity sas to be generated somewhere, at thermal
>> >>> efficiency levels. Transport, chargers, and batteries throw a bunch of >> >>> it away. Batteries are heavy and full of nasty chemicals. >>
>> >>>>More expensive ? Prototypes are always more expensive.
>> >>>>But let's see : >>
>> >>>>ICE : Complicated engine with lots of rotating and moving parts, with oil
+ water cooling system, with emission control (incl
>> >>>>catalytic converter with precious metals), with transmission and a
differential and exhaust system and a massive amount of pipes
>> >>>>and sensors.
>>
>> >>> And it all works great. I can load up 200 HP-hours worth of energy in
>> >>> about 2 minutes at a gas pump. That's about a 5 megawatt equivalent >> >>> charging rate. And I can drive coast-to-coast on about an hour of pit >> >>> stops. >>
>> >>You seem to confuse electric drive with EVs.
benefits of the current gasoline (or another fuel)
>> >>Electric drive with a small auxiliry power unit will give you all the >> >>infrastructure.
plan for)....
>> >>Like in the Volt (the only model with electric drive that GM actually has a >>
>> > Stuff like this has been "planned" for decades. I'll be impressed whan
>> > quantities of them are on the road. >>
>> > A plug-in hybrid does make sense for city drivers. But small, light
>> > cars make sense no matter what propels them. A small, light >> > gasoline-powered car may make the most sense. >>
>> The external costs of the fuel do not appear in the price. And if these >> costs were part of the price then biofuels would be the best current >> alternative. This is true here in the USA because we actually have the >> land necessary to produce that fuel and it is land that is not currently >> serving any good purpose or land that is serving a purpose that is not as >> environmentally and economically valid as it would be if devoted to fuel >> production. An example of this latter case is the production of paper >> that ends up in the land fills as trash. We could do with a bit less >> paper and use the pulp trees to make fuel. That is probably a good trade. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Sometimes I get into my Rabbit in the morning, start it up, drive away
>> >>> 5 seconds later, turn on the radio and the heater, ignore the steep >> >>> hills and the cold rain, and marvel at the whole process. And that >> >>> hundreds of millions of other working people can afford to do the same >> >>> thing. >>
>> >>Yes. me too.
and cheap, and the engineering advances made are
>> >>The ICE has served us greatly over the past 100 years that oil was abundant >> >>magnificent.
of this planet) have created for ourselves.
>> >>The ICE also enabled an astounding economic growth that we (as the people >> >>It also created a number of really big problems, which start to become
apparent, increasingly difficult and pressing as well as more
>> >>and more expensive.
eco systems.
>> >>More expensive for individuals, as well as nations, as well as the planet's >> >>It's time for change (before another 2 billion people join in our
lifestyle).
>>
>> >>>>Electric drive : a few melon-size electric motor/generators and a power
control unit.
>> >>>>Add a small (40hp) auxiliry power unit and you drive a 80mpg vehicle.
>>
>> >>>>Mmmm. What would be cheaper in mass production ?
>>
>> >>> What *is* cheaper?
>>
>> >>Want to bet ?
cheaper to produce than ICEs.
>> >>In mass production, I want to bet that electric drive is significantly >>
>> >>> If electric cars are cheaper and more efficient,
>> >>> why aren't they popular? Conspiracy? >>
>> >>John, I don't believe in conspiracies. In a free market the most cost
efficient solution wins. But big changes take time.
>> >>The incentives are there now (to start moving to electric drive, away from
oil and towards electricity), but only for the last
>> >>couple of years.
fuels) has not been there.
>> >>Also the political will to change (to start moving away from oil and fossil >> >>We are just getting started (with PHEVs).
towards electricity).
>> >>This process is going to take a while (to move vehicles away from oil and >> >>15-20 years is my estimate.
>>
>> And biofuels are a big part of that which fills the gap. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>>Batteries cost ?
right now.
>> >>>>If you are an average American, you spend around $3,000/year in gasoline >> >>>>I bet that for $3,000/year you can lease a top-of-the-line battery pack.
Even at current low-volume prices.
>>
>> >>>>What is cheaper ?
>> >>>>What is cleaner ? >> >>>>What is more efficient ? >> >>>>What is better prepared for the post Peak-Oil era that we just entered ? >>
>> >>> The peak oil point is always 10 years away.
>>
>> >>That is impossible.
>> >>Oil will peak at some point if it did not already. >>
>> >>> Hey, build yourself an electric car and save a bundle. There are lots
>> >>> of conversion kits on the market. >>
>> >>I might just do that, although retrofits are very seldom cost-effective.
you know it).
>> >>I pretty much have to throw away half the vehicle (ICE/drivetrain etc etc >> >>And the other half (chassis) got crumbled on I 238 last week :o(
>>
>> >>> There just aren't any good batteries.
>>
>> >>After all we talked about, this is what you say ?
>> >>It seems to me that you have made up your mind on this subject. >>
>> > Where's the great battery? I suspect a really good auto battery may be
>> > impossible. >>
text -
>> Biodiesel is one super duper battery. The shelf life is really good and >> the weight is not all that bad for the energy content. The photosynthesis >> is a the way you charge the battery. We need better algae that can get >> 20% efficiency as opposed to 8%. There was some promising research on >> this and some folks observing less than 8 photons to cause proper >> reactions and then .... nothing. There were some dudes shifting light >> wavelengths from blue to yellow red and that seems to have gone also. >> Nothing is happening that I can find. >> >> How do I search (like google) the patent data to find stuff like this? >> >> -- >> "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers >> of society but the people themselves; and >> if we think them not enlightened enough to >> exercise their control with a wholesome >> discretion, the remedy is not to take it from >> them, but to inform their discretion by >> education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org/extend- Hide quoted >>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - >
> Dear The Trucker: The 'up-side' of paper is that it comes from trees > that also "eat" CO2. You seem to misunderstand the word "trade". The trees still grow and eat the CO2 as before. But instead of making paper we use the wood to make cellulosic ethanol. > My bio-mass of choice is hemp. Such removes
> several times more CO2 per acre than does a forest. People always want to do hemp because it is controversial. I figgure you for a leftie. > The best
> immediate correction of our auto emissions problems is to use > optimized engine RPMs and loads to generate electricity for driving > the vehicle. Nope. Biofuels fit into the current fleet of cars and allow the new fleet of hybrids to come on line in due course. > Having engines run at varying speeds is hugely
> inefficient. > There are fixes for the symptoms of global warming which can buy > time to develop fuel alternatives. Yes... I have tried to name several of them and they are all currently ready to roll biofuels that need a decent government initiative as opposed to oil company Republican fascism. > Battery technology that uses toxic
> metals isn't environmentally friendly. One very environmentally > efficient solution is to make higher quality, longer lasting > vehicles. The energy being used to make "the latest" model is adding > nearly as much CO2 to the air as the fuels we burn. "Less is more.", > but isn't necessarily a bad way to be living! -- NoEinstein -- The latest model should be a hybrid. -- "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education." - Thomas Jefferson http://GreaterVoice.org/extend | |||||||||||||
|
Posted by NoEinstein on August 15, 2008, 5:50 pm
Please log in for more thread options > On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:22:56 -0700, NoEinstein wrote:
> >> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:36:15 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
> >> > wrote: >
> >> >>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:17:24 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <r...@verific.com=
>
> >> >>> wrote:
>
> >> >>>>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:28:03 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <r...@verific.c=
om>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
>
> >> >>>>>>There are just an amazing amount of new battery possibilities wh=
en vehicles
> >> >>>>>>finally move away from the inefficient, polluting, and heavy ICE=
s, and
> >> >>>>>>towards an era of clean electric drive.
>
> >> >>>>> Except that everything else, so far, is less efficient, more
> >> >>>>> polluting, and heavier. Not to mention way more expensive. >
> >> >>>>This is not true.
>
> >> >>>>Electric drive is 4X more efficient (not even counting regenerativ=
e braking), zero-pollution at the tailpipe (it has none), and is
> >> >>>>much lighter than an ICE.
>
> >> >>> Only if the electricity magically comes from somewhere free, and y=
ou
> >> >>> lug enough batteries for 20 miles of travel.
>
> >> >>> But the electricity sas to be generated somewhere, at thermal
h of
> >> >>> efficiency levels. Transport, chargers, and batteries throw a bunc= > >> >>> it away. Batteries are heavy and full of nasty chemicals.
>
> >> >>>>More expensive ? Prototypes are always more expensive.
> >> >>>>But let's see : >
> >> >>>>ICE : Complicated engine with lots of rotating and moving parts, w=
ith oil + water cooling system, with emission control (incl
> >> >>>>catalytic converter with precious metals), with transmission =A0an=
d a differential and exhaust system and a massive amount of pipes
> >> >>>>and sensors.
>
> >> >>> And it all works great. I can load up 200 HP-hours worth of energy=
in
> >> >>> about 2 minutes at a gas pump. That's about a 5 megawatt equivalen=
t
> >> >>> charging rate. And I can drive coast-to-coast on about an hour of =
pit
> >> >>> stops.
>
> >> >>You seem to confuse electric drive with EVs.
e benefits of the current gasoline (or another fuel)
> >> >>Electric drive with a small auxiliry power unit will give you all th= > >> >>infrastructure.
y has a plan for)....
> >> >>Like in the Volt (the only model with electric drive that GM actuall= >
> >> > Stuff like this has been "planned" for decades. I'll be impressed wh=
an
> >> > quantities of them are on the road.
>
> >> > A plug-in hybrid does make sense for city drivers. But small, light
> >> > cars make sense no matter what propels them. A small, light > >> > gasoline-powered car may make the most sense. >
> >> The external costs of the fuel do not appear in the price. =A0And if t=
hese
> >> costs were part of the price then biofuels would be the best current
the
> >> alternative. =A0This is true here in the USA because we actually have = > >> land necessary to produce that fuel and it is land that is not current=
ly
> >> serving any good purpose or land that is serving a purpose that is not=
as
> >> environmentally and economically valid as it would be if devoted to fu=
el
> >> production. =A0An example of this latter case is the production of pap=
er
> >> that ends up in the land fills as trash. =A0We could do with a bit les=
s
> >> paper and use the pulp trees to make fuel. That is probably a good tra=
de.
>
> >> >>> Sometimes I get into my Rabbit in the morning, start it up, drive =
away
> >> >>> 5 seconds later, turn on the radio and the heater, ignore the stee=
p
> >> >>> hills and the cold rain, and marvel at the whole process. And that
same
> >> >>> hundreds of millions of other working people can afford to do the = > >> >>> thing.
>
> >> >>Yes. me too.
bundant and cheap, and the engineering advances made are
> >> >>The ICE has served us greatly over the past 100 years that oil was a= > >> >>magnificent.
eople of this planet) have created for ourselves.
> >> >>The ICE also enabled an astounding economic growth that we (as the p= > >> >>It also created a number of really big problems, which start to beco=
me apparent, increasingly difficult and pressing as well as more
> >> >>and more expensive.
lanet's eco systems.
> >> >>More expensive for individuals, as well as nations, as well as the p= > >> >>It's time for change (before another 2 billion people join in our li=
festyle).
>
> >> >>>>Electric drive : a few melon-size electric motor/generators and a =
power control unit.
> >> >>>>Add a small (40hp) auxiliry power unit and you drive a 80mpg vehic=
le.
>
> >> >>>>Mmmm. What would be cheaper in mass production ?
>
> >> >>> What *is* cheaper?
>
> >> >>Want to bet ?
ly cheaper to produce than ICEs.
> >> >>In mass production, I want to bet that electric drive is significant= >
> >> >>> If electric cars are cheaper and more efficient,
> >> >>> why aren't they popular? Conspiracy? >
> >> >>John, I don't believe in conspiracies. In a free market the most cos=
t efficient solution wins. But big changes take time.
> >> >>The incentives are there now (to start moving to electric drive, awa=
y from oil and towards electricity), but only for the last
> >> >>couple of years.
fossil fuels) has not been there.
> >> >>Also the political will to change (to start moving away from oil and= > >> >>We are just getting started (with PHEVs).
l and towards electricity).
> >> >>This process is going to take a while (to move vehicles away from oi= > >> >>15-20 years is my estimate.
>
> >> And biofuels are a big part of that which fills the gap.
>
> >> >>>>Batteries cost ?
soline right now.
> >> >>>>If you are an average American, you spend around $3,000/year in ga= > >> >>>>I bet that for $3,000/year you can lease a top-of-the-line battery=
pack. Even at current low-volume prices.
>
> >> >>>>What is cheaper ?
ered ?
> >> >>>>What is cleaner ? > >> >>>>What is more efficient ? > >> >>>>What is better prepared for the post Peak-Oil era that we just ent= >
> >> >>> The peak oil point is always 10 years away.
>
> >> >>That is impossible.
> >> >>Oil will peak at some point if it did not already. >
> >> >>> Hey, build yourself an electric car and save a bundle. There are l=
ots
> >> >>> of conversion kits on the market.
>
> >> >>I might just do that, although retrofits are very seldom cost-effect=
ive.
> >> >>I pretty much have to throw away half the vehicle (ICE/drivetrain et=
c etc you know it).
> >> >>And the other half (chassis) got crumbled on I 238 last week =A0:o(
>
> >> >>> There just aren't any good batteries.
>
> >> >>After all we talked about, this is what you say ?
> >> >>It seems to me that you have made up your mind on this subject. >
> >> > Where's the great battery? I suspect a really good auto battery may =
be
> >> > impossible.
>
> >> Biodiesel is one super duper battery. =A0The shelf life is really good=
and
> >> the weight is not all that bad for the energy content. =A0The photosyn=
thesis
> >> is a the way you charge the battery. =A0We need better algae that can =
get
> >> 20% efficiency as opposed to 8%. =A0There was some promising research =
on
> >> this and some folks observing less than 8 photons to cause proper
light
> >> reactions and then .... =A0nothing. =A0There were some dudes shifting = > >> wavelengths from blue to yellow red and that seems to have gone also.
> >> Nothing is happening that I can find. >
> >> How do I search (like google) the patent data to find stuff like this?
>
> >> --
ed text -
> >> "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers > >> of society but the people themselves; and > >> if we think them not enlightened enough to > >> exercise their control with a wholesome > >> discretion, the remedy is not to take it from > >> them, but to inform their discretion by > >> education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org/extend-Hide quot= >
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Dear The Trucker: =A0The 'up-side' of paper is that it comes from trees
> > that also "eat" CO2. >
at
> You seem to misunderstand the word "trade". =A0The trees still grow and e= > the CO2 as before. =A0But instead of making paper we use the wood to make
> cellulosic ethanol. > > > My bio-mass of choice is hemp. =A0Such removes
> > several times more CO2 per acre than does a forest. >
ou
> People always want to do hemp because it is controversial. =A0I figgure y= > for a leftie.
> > > =A0The best
> > immediate correction of our auto emissions problems is to use > > optimized engine RPMs and loads to generate electricity for driving > > the vehicle. >
eet
> Nope. =A0Biofuels fit into the current fleet of cars and allow the new fl= > of hybrids to come on line in due course.
> > > Having engines run at varying speeds is hugely
buy
> > inefficient. > > =A0 =A0 =A0There are fixes for the symptoms of global warming which can= > > time to develop fuel alternatives.
>
d
> Yes... I have tried to name several of them and they are all currently > ready to roll biofuels that need a decent government initiative as oppose= > to oil company Republican fascism.
> > > Battery technology that uses toxic
> > metals isn't environmentally friendly. =A0One very environmentally > > efficient solution is to make higher quality, longer lasting > > vehicles. =A0The energy being used to make "the latest" model is adding > > nearly as much CO2 to the air as the fuels we burn. =A0"Less is more.", > > but isn't necessarily a bad way to be living! =A0-- NoEinstein -- >
text -
> The latest model should be a hybrid. > > -- > "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers > of society but the people themselves; and > if we think them not enlightened enough to > exercise their control with a wholesome > discretion, the remedy is not to take it from > them, but to inform their discretion by > education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org/extend- Hide quoted= >
> - Show quoted text - Dear Trucker: My suggestions are 'objectives', yours are do-it-nows. Over time, your ways can transition to my ways. =97 NoEinstein =97 | |||||||||||||
