Any of you guys use Middlebrook's extra element theorem?
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Posted by Joel Kolstad on June 21, 2006, 11:44 am
Please log in for more thread options Just curious... do any of those of you doing amplifier/filter/power supply/etc. design sit down and use R. D. Middlebrook's Extra Element Theorem (EET) or the extended N-extra element theorem (NEET) to come up with "low entropy" (his term) analytical functions for your designs? The idea is that you can pretty quickly come up with equations that directly imply pole/zero locations, frequency dependence, etc., something that -- even for relatively simply circuits -- becomes quite "messy" if you just use standard node voltage and/or current loop equations. I'm curious how much the EET is a useful tool that I just missed out on in college (my college had a memorial plaque to the guy who figured out how to measure the water content in cow's milk to insure it hadn't been diluted by unscrupulous farmers, I kid you not...) vs. being a pet project of a select few with limited real-world applicability; on the surface it appears pretty cool. ---Joel Kolstad | |||||||||||||
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Posted by John Larkin on June 21, 2006, 11:57 am
Please log in for more thread options On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:44:11 -0700, "Joel Kolstad" Nope, never heard of it. I mostly sketch Bode plots. John | |||||||||||||
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Posted by Jim Thompson on June 21, 2006, 12:12 pm
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On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:44:11 -0700, "Joel Kolstad" >Just curious... do any of those of you doing amplifier/filter/power
>supply/etc. design sit down and use R. D. Middlebrook's Extra Element Theorem >(EET) or the extended N-extra element theorem (NEET) to come up with "low >entropy" (his term) analytical functions for your designs? The idea is that >you can pretty quickly come up with equations that directly imply pole/zero >locations, frequency dependence, etc., something that -- even for relatively >simply circuits -- becomes quite "messy" if you just use standard node voltage >and/or current loop equations. > >I'm curious how much the EET is a useful tool that I just missed out on in >college (my college had a memorial plaque to the guy who figured out how to >measure the water content in cow's milk to insure it hadn't been diluted by >unscrupulous farmers, I kid you not...) vs. being a pet project of a select >few with limited real-world applicability; on the surface it appears pretty >cool. > >---Joel Kolstad > I haven't, though I use my own version of Middlebrook's loop gain/phase analysis in PSpice. You've piqued my curiosity, so I've downloaded a number of different papers on the subject. Unfortunately, first glance gives me the impression that it's more of academic use than practical. But I'll read the papers. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. | |||||||||||||
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Posted by Joerg on June 21, 2006, 1:49 pm
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Hello Joel, > Just curious... do any of those of you doing amplifier/filter/power
> supply/etc. design sit down and use R. D. Middlebrook's Extra Element Theorem > (EET) or the extended N-extra element theorem (NEET) to come up with "low > entropy" (his term) analytical functions for your designs? The idea is that > you can pretty quickly come up with equations that directly imply pole/zero > locations, frequency dependence, etc., something that -- even for relatively > simply circuits -- becomes quite "messy" if you just use standard node voltage > and/or current loop equations. > After about 20 years of analog design in the professional world I can't say that I have. Ol' Hendrik Bode's diagrams and Smith charts, mostly. And a good dose of experience to spot when a phase margin becomes too dicey or an extra zero could creep up somewhere (like when a SMPS design could go into continuous mode). > I'm curious how much the EET is a useful tool that I just missed out on in
> college (my college had a memorial plaque to the guy who figured out how to > measure the water content in cow's milk to insure it hadn't been diluted by > unscrupulous farmers, I kid you not...) vs. being a pet project of a select > few with limited real-world applicability; on the surface it appears pretty > cool. > Could be. But if something isn't demonstrated in the pertinent literature this often indicates that other methods are considered more efficient. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com | |||||||||||||
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Posted by Terry Given on June 21, 2006, 10:10 pm
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Joerg wrote: > Hello Joel,
> > >> Just curious... do any of those of you doing amplifier/filter/power
>> supply/etc. design sit down and use R. D. Middlebrook's Extra Element >> Theorem (EET) or the extended N-extra element theorem (NEET) to come >> up with "low entropy" (his term) analytical functions for your >> designs? The idea is that you can pretty quickly come up with >> equations that directly imply pole/zero locations, frequency >> dependence, etc., something that -- even for relatively simply >> circuits -- becomes quite "messy" if you just use standard node >> voltage and/or current loop equations. >> >
> After about 20 years of analog design in the professional world I can't > say that I have. Ol' Hendrik Bode's diagrams and Smith charts, mostly. > And a good dose of experience to spot when a phase margin becomes too > dicey or an extra zero could creep up somewhere (like when a SMPS design > could go into continuous mode). > > >> I'm curious how much the EET is a useful tool that I just missed out
>> on in college (my college had a memorial plaque to the guy who figured >> out how to measure the water content in cow's milk to insure it hadn't >> been diluted by unscrupulous farmers, I kid you not...) vs. being a >> pet project of a select few with limited real-world applicability; on >> the surface it appears pretty cool. >> >
> Could be. But if something isn't demonstrated in the pertinent > literature this often indicates that other methods are considered more > efficient. > I bought a copy of Hendrik Bodes book, and its easily thge best one I have read on the subject. A very, very smart guy. What about Bartletts bisection theorem? I've got a copy of Fosters paper, too :) Cheers Terry | |||||||||||||
>supply/etc. design sit down and use R. D. Middlebrook's Extra Element Theorem
>(EET) or the extended N-extra element theorem (NEET) to come up with "low
>entropy" (his term) analytical functions for your designs? The idea is that
>you can pretty quickly come up with equations that directly imply pole/zero
>locations, frequency dependence, etc., something that -- even for relatively
>simply circuits -- becomes quite "messy" if you just use standard node voltage
>and/or current loop equations.