Cisco possibilities

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What are the possibilites of employment for CISCO certified, for example if
I decide to take CCNA and try to get a job based only on that cert.
I have to point out that I do not have any registered experience.

Thank You.

PS. I`m 28y old, is it possible that professional reorientation at this age
is too late, in this sector more exact?

Re: Cisco possibilities
Retraining at 28 aint the problem, I retrained in IT from an elecronics
background at about the same age. The main issue is not having real world
experience, and employers will always look at that over certification. What
I found was that with the certification I could get an interview, but not
the job, so I took some fairly junior positions to gain the required
experience and knowledge that the exams can't provide. I also made a big
deal of my experience as a field engineer that provided me with customer
facing skills, this is something that no exam can teach and if you are good
at it then point it out.

Hope that helps.


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Re: Cisco possibilities
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It should be noted that a certification is a good way to learn, and is
primarily a way to enhance existing experience.  One should not depend
on certifications as the sole marker of one's abilities if one wishes
to gain meaningful employment.   You have to gain experience from the
bottom up, like in any other industry (think of how a lawyer
progresses to being a senior partner; they start as an associate
working 80 hour weeks, and work their way up)

Re: Cisco possibilities
I beg to differ, Mike. Certifications are NOT a learning tool. Certifications
are to REINFORCE one's experience and knowledge of the systems, or equipment
that they're working on. When you make a statement like that, you're opening up
the field for everyone and anyone that wants to LEARN about IT to just take a
chance at learning it. When that is the case, most people choose to learn the
wrong way. People that have not invested, into the industry, a significant
amount of time, prior to investigating certifications, tend to not care if they
degrade those certifications. They more often than not go straight for the
braindumps and don't care if their certifications are worth anything.

Some useful links:

Forums: /
Practice Test Providers:
Study Materials and Books:
Vendor Links and Emails:


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Re: Cisco possibilities
Well, I beg to differ with you.  What you described is the idea of certs,
but not the reality.  The reason that people go for the brain dumps is that
is what the current testing methods encourage.  I've explained to you before
that the fix is not to criticize the end user, but to fix the tests so that
they better test abilities to do the job rather than to remember odd facts
that many people would use resources for anyway in the real world.

What do you think the certification training books are that come out from
Cisco and Microsoft, other than glorified brain dumps?

The current certificaiton methods are what encourage people to learn the
wrong way, not the brain dumps. The brain dumps are just a symptom of how
disfunctional the testing process is.

But, I do agree with Mike, Certs are a good way to enhance your existing
experience.  Note that he did mention that the experience is important.
But, I think that many who are experienced and later going back for the
certs (like myself) will find that they are filling in gaps of information
that they otherwise will not have learned.  So, yes, it does reinforce what
you know, but it also enchances your knowledge base as well. Mike's analogy
was right on.

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Re: Cisco possibilities
I'm not here to argue with you, or anyone else, about this. All I'm stating is
that people looking to get into the IT Industry should not look towards
certifications for 'a way in'. They either need some solid, hands-on, training,
or they need to have a good working knowledge of the systems or equipment they
want to certify on. Education is the key for everyone, not just the
Certification Vendors. The Vendors are working on other possibilities, so why
can't the 'end users'?

As for those 'glorified braindumps' you speak of, it sounds like you're not
fully understanding the meaning of the word braindump. Braindumps are:
"Questions and Answers taken from exams or other tests that have been
copyrighted for purposes of protecting Confidential or Trade Secret Information
and distributed for purposes of cheating or profit." Those Official Publications
were not created to help people cheat on exams, nor have they ever been a part
of an exam. They were, however, created to help people reinforce their knowledge
of the systems and/or equipment they are working with and testing on.

I would like to hear how the current testing/certification methods _encourage_
the use of braindumps. If what you say is true, then maybe I can talk with
people I know and have the issue resolved, or at least looked at.


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Re: Cisco possibilities
Hmmm, maybe you should go back and read what you responded to.  Mike was
pretty clear about Certs not being the only means.  And, I would say that
you were argumentative.

I know perfectly well what a brain dump is.  But, my point is that I've seen
questions in "official" certification guides that are closer to real test
questions than I've seen elsewhere. And, these guides often don't focus on
learning, they focus on passing the test.  If you think otherwise, then you
haven't spent a whole lot of time reading these guides.

What encourages brain dumps is that the tests mostly test the ability to
remember certain facts - ones that many professionals don't even remember
and would use references to find out. Who cares what the 5 steps to
accomplish this task, or troubleshooting that are?  The tests need to be
more real world.  I've told you this before.  The CCIE tests are more what
I'm speaking about - much harder and proctored, but working on real
equipment.  Maybe not quite that difficult for more entry level stuff, but
the model can be learned from.

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Re: Cisco possibilities
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Regardless, Mike's initial statement "It should be noted that a certification is
a good way to learn," is what I was disagreeing with and I will continue to
stand by my statement that Certifications are not to be used to gain entrance
into a field that you have no knowledge about. Certifications were designed to
give the IT Professional with a significant background the ability to show his
employers/clients that he has the knowledge and experience to perform certain

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Ok, then you should have elaborated on your previous statement. Because what you
just said doesn't justify the Official Publication being called a 'glorified
braindump'. The Official Publications have the authority to present the material
in that manner, braindumps don't. Often the same Certified Trainers have input
on both the Exam and the Official Test Prep Materials. Not to mention the fact
that the Official Publications have historically been a lesser quality than the
other's for the simple fact that they are the FIRST to have the information
published. The writers of the subsequent publications have more than likely
reviewed the original material at one point or another and have picked out any

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Although I do agree that the tests should be more 'real world', I still don't
see how all of this *encourages* people to break the law by stealing the

Being an MCSE, I'm sure you're aware that all of the Microsoft Exams are
'proctored'. In fact, Cisco uses the same exact proctors in the testing centers
that Microsoft does (with a few exceptions, I'm sure).

Therefore, the quality of proctorship is directly proportional to the quality of
the testing center they are employed by. But, that does not mean the
Certification Vendors are liable for braindumps. Microsoft and Cisco have both
been working on increasing the complexity of their exams, that much is obvious.
But the first line of defense, when it comes to Exam Security lies with the
Testing Centers that pay their proctors very little to watch people take exams.

Another statement that I stand by is "Everyone needs to be educated (criticized,
critiqued, etc.), not just the Certification Vendors".


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Re: Cisco possibilities

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Studying for Certification tests IS a good way to learn.  Leave it at that
and don't extrapolate into something he didn't say.  Mike clearly qualified
that experience is important.

Besides, what is wrong with getting the certs before an actual job.  Sure,
the experience is much more important in my opinion.  But, if you can pass
the test, why not do it?  See, now the tests should be hard enough that you
can't pass without some real hands on experience, but I've already said
that, haven't I?  Certs are devalued because of this.  Got nothing to do
with brain dumps.

<snip>  Whatever, not worth debating the sematics of these middle issues

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Break the law?  I'm not sure about that, but it is breaking the agreement
you have.  I will maintain that if they make the tests easy enough to pass
without real world experience and focus more on memorizing than actually
learning, this is what you will get.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not
encouraging braindumps.  But, if one passes the test by brain dumps and one
passes by reading the Cisco/Microsoft official guide, but neither can
actually do the job, what's the difference?  That is where the devaluing
comes in.  You can blame it on brain dumps all day long, but that is not the
true problem with certs.

I mentioned this before, but I actually didn't value certifications long
before brain dumps were a thing.  They just plain don't test your ability to
do the job.  I can't speak for all certs, but having sat for a bunch of
Novell, Microsoft and Cisco tests, I would say that is the case with them.
I've hired contractors with certifications (before brain dumps) that were
clueless and made me wonder how they could have been certified.

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Not even close to the same thing.  Read up on what the CCIE testing
environment is like.  I don't call the people sitting at the desk in Vue and
Prometric centers real proctors.

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Agreed.  What have you been doing with the vendors to improve the situation?
You spend a lot of time on the boards sending people to your web site, but
I've never seen anything that indicates you have any approach other than
getting rid of brain dumps.

Re: Cisco possibilities
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I will not leave it at that. As I stated before, regardless of what Mike said in
addition to "It should be noted that a certification is a good way to learn," he
STILL said it, and it is still incorrect.

Certifications were NOT designed as a learning tool. Here, this is coming from
the horse's mouth:
I quote: "Professional licensure and certification exams insure the public that
the professionals they choose to work with have achieved certain standards of
competency and achievement."

Now, let me paraphrase for you, "...have ACHIEVED...", past tense.
Certifications were designed to show your clients/employers that you HAVE the
necessary skills, not that you're learning them. It's the people that promote
that method of obtaining certifications that are the problem, not the Vendors or
how their tests are designed. Well, not completely, I do still agree that they
need better structure. But if more people would just understand that
certifications are NOT a learning tool, then there would be fewer 'tools' out
there looking for certifications. Which would lessen the chances of people using
braindumps, and further lessen the number of people stealing them.

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What do you mean "what is wrong with getting the certs before an actual job."?
C'mon, you're smarter than that. It defeats the purpose...the meaning...behind
actually having a certification. That, right there, is a good portion of the
drop in the value of certifications. I have not disagreed that the tests need to
be more difficult, so why are you trying to shove it in my face like I'm wrong
and you're right? We're on the same side here, we just have different views. And
you can't seriously be sitting there trying to tell me that braindumps have
absolutely nothing to do with the value of IT Certifications. Seriously? "Got
nothing to do with brain dumps." I refuse to believe you're being serious.

Testking has given hundreds of thousands of individuals a means to cheat and
enter the industry by way of braindumps. With the vast majority of those
individuals being in China and India, why do you think the "outsourcing boom"
happened when it did? Why do you think the Chinese are "out certifying"
Americans 10:1? Yes, 10 to 1, it's documented.

The problem you see on the surface is much deeper than you think it is. Look at
it like an iceberg. You're only seeing 10%, the other 90% is what we're trying
to uncover.

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Precisely what I've been getting at this entire time...EXPERIENCE. There is no
room in the Industry anymore for "Paper Certs".

And yes, "break the law", Copyright infringement is a criminal/civil offense,
and depending on the state you're in, could cost a lot of money and/or jail
time. It has been proven in courts of law in (I'm guessing) every State of the
Union and probably in many provinces in Canada. Major record labels have proven
it, major production companies have proven it, and oh yeah Microsoft has proven

I'll quote: "Uploading or downloading works protected by copyright without the
authority of the copyright owner is an infringement of the copyright owner's
exclusive rights of reproduction and/or distribution. Anyone found to have
infringed a copyrighted work may be liable for statutory damages up to $30,000
for each work infringed and, if willful infringement is proven by the copyright
owner, that amount may be increased up to $150,000 for each work infringed. In
addition, an infringer of a work may also be liable for the attorney's fees
incurred by the copyright owner to enforce his or her rights."

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Yet you have certifications and you continue to promote their use and
incorporation into the industry? I know people that feel the same way you do,
but they _refuse_ to hire anyone based on the fact that they have
certifications, and in fact, if a person says they have a certification, that
person has to do even MORE now to try to get the job.

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I'll have to take your word for it, since nobody else it chiming in to say
anything different, and because I'm not familiar with the CCIE Testing

I don't consider them 'real proctors' either, they're more like overpaid
sweatshop workers. They don't care one way or the other if, or how, anyone
passes a test. They're there to make their minimum wage and go party at the end
of the day.

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You have to understand that what you see in public is what we can (or choose to)
provide you. Our goals are to increase "Exam Security and Integrity". There are
many different aspects to Exam Security and Integrity. Braindumps are but one,
cheaters another, gunmen yet another. Those are what we're taking care of
publicly, as for what we're doing on the Vendor level, I cannot say. Not yet.


Re: Cisco possibilities

This is getting too long to comment inline, here are my thoughts to your

Yep, you've got the idea of the certs down, but not the reality.  A very
unscientific guess would say that a high majority of people taking cert
tests are being tested, in part, for items that they haven't experienced in
the real world.  I've spent a fair amount of time in classes at professional
training centers.  I was usually there to learn what I needed, but a high
percentage of those people were there to pass a test, many of them very
inexperienced in some of the pre-reqs.  The problem is not the people, but
the whole certification setup.

If you see a problem with people passing the tests before actual experience,
then the problem is with the tests, not the people.  I meant what I said,
what is wrong with it?  Where do you draw the line on how much experience
someone needs to take the test?  I'm sure I've said this before - the
problem is not with the people, it is with the tests.

Maybe TestKing and others have given people a means to cheat.  But, how
about this.... You can get a legal braindump for $125.  Want your CCNA?  Go
sit the test before you are ready, remember as much as you can from the
test.  Soon as you leave, write it all down - go study and come back. Okay,
if you fail, do it a few times, sooner or later, you'll get it all.  It's
cheaper than taking a class or paying for some really expensive training
material and equipment.  Besides, that CCNA will get you more $$$ in your
check and more than pay for those failed tests.  And this is all legal per
Cisco's agreement.   What's the difference, really?

Braindumps, cheaters, gunmen are only a small portion of the real problem -
as you put it, the tip of the iceburg.  If you really want to work to make
certs more valuable, you are fighting a loosing battle by your approach.
These factors will always exist until tests are developed that prevents it
(or makes more difficult).

Yes, I have certs, but only because they are required by some jobs, not
because I consider them valuable at all.  The value I put on them has
nothing to do with how many people may have cheated to get theirs, it is
simply because I feel these tests do not reflect the ability of someone to
do the job.  That is the big problem.

Don't take my word for what the CCIE testing environment is like - try
Google.  There is information on what to expect on your testing day.  This
sounds like something you should know if you are working to make certs more

Stop putting the blame in the wrong place.  Certs are not devalued <much>
because of the braindumpers, it is all the factors around the certification
process. I'll take back the "nothing" comment, but I still don't belive that
braindumps have a major impact on cert value.  I don't believe that we are
on the same side as you put it.  Yes, we'd both like to see certs get valued
more, but our points and approach are at completely opposite ends of the
spectrum.  You and I completely disagree what is important to accomplish
that objective.

Or, is all this this really just about getting traffic to your site and
making money?


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Re: Cisco possibilities

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The only reason that that 'reality', as you put it, is not what was actually
intended for the exams is because of the people that prefer to _learn_ from the
certifications versus learning from the job and earning the certifications

I do not disagree that "people are not the problem", BUT, excluding them from
the equation is not the answer to the solution, and that is what you're trying
to do...exclude the people.

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I think I answered your question clearly enough before, I shouldn't have to
answer it again.

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"Legal Braindump?" By definition that is an oxymoron. If you're simply meaning
that one person take and retake an exam until it has been passed, then there is
nothing _illegal_ about that, but it still falls under the statement "you should
have the experience before the certification", otherwise you're nothing more
than a 'Paper Cert'. It's as simple as that.

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Yes, they are only a small portion, but a portion nonetheless. Again, excluding
them from the equation would render the rest of the process useless. The
difference here is that you see it as a 'losing battle', my team and I see it as
a 'necessary battle'.

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I have no certifications (ZERO, ZILCH, NADA) yet I've had no problem finding
work when I needed it. I don't understand how you can say they're useless, then
go on to excuse the reason you have them. If you honestly felt that
certifications were worthless, you would have proven to your superiors that same

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I will do that.

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I'm not placing blame in any one place, I'm trying to determine _every_ place
that blame should be and distributing it accordingly. Unlike you, I'm not
excluding any factor from the equation.

Apparently I was wrong about us being on the same side then. I was under the
impression you were against the use of braindumps and you wanted to see the
value of your certifications increased. I apologize, it appears as if you're
here for nothing more than an argument (just like me).

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Yup, you got me. After all this you've finally figured out that I'm here for
nothing more than to make money. Even though the information on my site is
completely free, and that I'm currently running no ads on the site, except for
the Amazon ads, because those are actually helping to cover the costs that I
have shelled out of my own pocket over the past year. Yup, that's me, just call
me Mr. Moneybags.

Please don't try to turn this conversation around to make it look like I'm here
for my benefit. What's the point in that? What were you hoping to gain from
that? Were you hoping to discredit my name? What were you thinking?

That was the LAST comment of yours I will be addressing here. Thanks for the
time, and the content.


Re: Cisco possibilities
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Because that is what the certification methods encourage.

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Only because it is a losing proposition.  I just say go after what is really
going to make a difference.

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You didn't answer where to draw the line.  How much experience is enough to
take an exam.  Here, you only leave a gray area.  The appropriate response
is "enough to pass the test" - therefore, make the test warrant real

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Not just taking the test until passes, but taking the test for the sake of
seeing what questions and answers are provided.  You can learn from failing
a test.  I agree that this does just make paper certs. Going after brain
dumpers does nothing to fix this, because this is a legit way of getting the
same information - that was my point.

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Whatever, under the current system of certifications, I submit that you will
make very little difference in the value of certifications due to your
existing approach.

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Hmmmm, so why is this even important to you?  As for me, I've pursued certs
as a means of getting interviews.  I had been at the same position for the
last 10 years and my employer did not have any idea what certs I had.  Only
recently, when I decided to reenter the job market, did I feel it was
important to come up to date with ones that I should have. I feel very
confident that if I interview for the same position as someone with a paper
cert, I'll get the job every time.  So, the paper cert doesn't bother me.

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Huh?  I'll ask you again, what are you doing to try and improve the testing

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I am against braindumps and am all for making certs valid.  However, just
the fact that we are debating the process and are so far apart on agreeing
says that we are on opposite sides.

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Okay, I wasn't trying to expose or discredit you.  I was just simply trying
to figure out your motive.  Nothing wrong with trying to make some money off
a web site.  But, first, people make craploads of money off click throughs,
so the potential is high if you get enough traffic, and you failed to
mention your overpriced garb. Don't try to downplay the potential income for
a lot of traffic on your site.  Even so, nothing wrong with trying to make
some money in the process.  I just wanted to know what tree you are barking
up.  Cause if you are looking for the fruit of validating certs, I'll tell
you that you are barking up the wrong tree.  If you are looking for
financial fruit, when then good luck in doing so.  I'd just like to save my
debates for someone that really cares.  But, maybe the cut and run,
defensive attitude says it all.

Re: Cisco possibilities
I'll reply sometime this weekend if I have the time. Otherwise, it will be
monday. Right now, though, it's quittin' time.

Have a good weekend!


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Re: Cisco possibilities
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You have still failed to prove to me just how certification methods *encourage*
this behavior in people. If you or I were to go take an exam today, would we
cheat on it "just because it's easy"? I wouldn't, but then, I have higher morals
than others do.

People cheat. Everywhere. Not just on Certification Exams...everywhere. People
cheat to get to the front of a line, people cheat to get better parking spaces,
people cheat to get food stamps, people cheat to get better golf scores, or to
provide a story to their buddies at the end of the week. It's relentless. No
matter how difficult the testing methods are, you're always going to find
cheaters amongst the crowd. But, if the rewards of cheating can be reduced to
the point where it isn't worth taking the risk, then fewer people will do it.

You also stated "A very unscientific guess would say that a high majority of
people taking cert tests are being tested, in part, for items that they haven't
experienced in the real world."

Of course they are! And a better unscientific guess would be that *everyone* is
being tested, in part, for items they have not yet experienced. Not everyone is
going to have the EXACT same experience, but education teaches one how to deal
with the situations that have not been encountered.

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Still, you believe that people should be excluded. I say, they are the Key.
People can make a difference, and people in numbers can make a bigger
difference. Ever play Othello? You know the board game, plastic chips that are
black on one side and white on the other. When one color is flanked by the
opposite color, it changes sides. That is a basic analysis on our goal. We want
to convert as many braindumpers as possible.

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Did I need to? Look at the requirements set forth by the Vendor. That is your
answer. For instance, Microsoft recommends the following:

An MCSE candidate should have at least one year of experience implementing and
administering a network operating system in environments with the following

- 200 to 26,000 supported users.
- Five to 150 physical locations.
- Typical network services and applications including file and print, database,
messaging, proxy server or firewall, dial-in server, desktop management, and Web
- Connectivity needs including connecting individual offices and users at remote
locations to the corporate network and connecting corporate networks to the

In addition, an MCSE candidate should have at least one year of experience in
the following areas:

- Implementing and administering a desktop operating system.
- Designing a network infrastructure."

Unfortunately, no matter how _difficult_ you make a test, people are *always*
going to write books about them to make them easier for people that whine about
not being able to understand them. Your logic is flawed, as there will always be
circumvention. The best way to handle the people on this end is to educate them
about why it is wrong to cheat.
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You are completely wrong about that. That method is not (and has NEVER been)
legal. Certification vendors all have an Exam Retake Policy that prevents people
from doing exactly that. And if that behavior is determined in a person's
testing, they are warned and/or banned from the Certification Vendor's testing.

I agree that it needs to be 'beefed' up a little, but here is Cisco's:

and Microsoft's:

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What do you know about our 'existing approach'? You cannot make accurate claims
about how much, or how little, we will make a difference, without knowing our
true intentions. Yet you try to judge what we're trying to do based on these
false accusations.

You...yes Jim, YOU are the reason I'm not able to focus my attention 100% on the
people that really need it. Because of people like you, I have to divert my
efforts to appeasing you instead of stopping people from spreading the crap
that's out there. You are the reason I'm not making an impact at this point. I'm
sorry, but this is it. I have made my points, and I have justified them to you,
and to everyone else here that is reading this.

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Because I was _planning_ those certs when I realized that getting my
certifications would not only do me no good, but it was also hurting the
Certifications of others. I asked my self "Why do I NEED these certifications?"
and I realized that I don't _need_ them, I just wanted them. I have a degree and
plenty of experience to get me past needing a certificate to tell people I can
do something the degree has been telling them for years.

I too feel confident that if I were interviewing against someone with a paper
cert that I would take the job every time, even without the certs. So what is
your point?

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Then I'll respond again: "You have to understand that what you see in public is
what we can (or choose to) provide you. Our goals are to increase "Exam Security
and Integrity". There are many different aspects to Exam Security and Integrity.
Braindumps are but one, cheaters another, gunmen yet another. Those are what
we're taking care of publicly, as for what we're doing on the Vendor level, I
cannot say. Not yet."

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You've completely lost me. "Opposite sides" means that we are working towards
different goals. Do we have different goals? Or are thinking about different
approaches to the same goal?

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If you'd like to figure out my MO, then re-read the entire thread. It's pretty

As for the 'overpriced garb' #1, I designed that for ME, so that I can hand it
out at IT Conventions, and to just wear it around town. #2, I only stuck it up
for sale at the request of a few other people, and #3, it's only marked up 5%
from the price that CafePress is charging me for it.

Ohhhhh, so that's what this is about. You don't care about Mike's original
statement, this has all been about satisfying your need for a debate. Well
Scooby, your debates need a lot of work. And if that's the case, then
them for someone that cares, because I do not care about satisfying your need
for a simple debate.

Here are some useful links:
Forums: /
Practice Test Providers:
Study Materials and Books:
Vendor Links and Emails:


Re: Cisco possibilities

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I can't "prove" this, it is my opinion.  But, here is the idea...  Open a
jewelry store in South Central LA, don't put any locks on the doors or bars
on the windows.  Here is an invitation to steal.  But, it would be wiser to
install locks, bars and even an alarm system than to run around asking
people not to steal.  Even moral people can be tempted to do wrong, and
occasionally give in.  Remember, only Jesus was perfect.  Everybody else,
moral or not, has done wrong.

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That's correct.  And that pretty much is my point.  Instead of worrying
about who is cheating, make it hard for anybody to do so.

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Agreed - but the tests certainly don't reflect that attitude.

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I'm not saying that it is a bad thing to educate people about the braindumps
and cheating.  What I am saying is that if your goal is really to make certs
more valuable, then the testing format needs to change.  As a hiring manager
(and someone who has been through cert programs), I have little faith in the
testing system.  Not because of braindumps, but simply because the current
testing methods do not test the ability to do the job.  Geez, you'd think
that the vendors could actually come up with new questions - that would
eliminate the braindumps altogether.

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ROLF - nice copy of the site.  But, first, that is a guideline.  Were you
aware that MCSE is actually six exams, not one.  I would guess that nobody,
after that minimal experience, is ready (or even close) to pass all the
tests of the MCSE.  Which means that studying for the missing information is
needed.  Guess we are right back to studying for certs as a good way to
learn.  Very few people actually get all the experience they need in their
job to get through a comprehensive certification program like the MCSE.

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Hmmm, they both have waiting periods.  But, I didn't see anywhere that it
says you can't keep taking until passed.

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I know what you say here and what is on your web page.  I believe that your
approach is to go after braindumpers and the people that use them (and
gunners, cheaters, etc...).  I never claimed that my opinions are
scientific.  But, I do claim to have experience in what I am talking about,
both from the perspective of being certified and from being a hiring

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Puh-lease.... If anything, I'm giving you the forum to express your opinion.
Besides, I only sound off cause you jumped on someone's case, when I thought
it was unwarranted.  You seem to have very little tolerance for an opinion
that is not yours.

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So, then, what are you worried about?  My point is that if someone cheated
and got their cert, then it has not hurt me.  I still get the job.  You are
saying that the cheaters are devaluing the certs.  I strongly believe that
the reason certs are not more valued than they are has very little to do
with the cheaters.  You just helped make my point.

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There is nothing wrong with that.  But, you go under the pretense that
fixing this somehow makes certs so much more valuable.  And that is just
plain wrong.  As I've stated before, certs had the same issue before
braindumps were a thing.

I challenge you to go through a comprehensive certification program (MCSE or
CCNP).  Not for gaining the certs, but for the sake of the experience.  Go
for the one that you have the most knowledge in.  You need to see what the
testing is like.  See if you think these programs really test your ability
to work on someone's network.  If you are going stand at the pulpit and
criticize people, you should know first hand what you are talking about.
Seriously, if you don't consider certs important to get, then what do you
care if people are cheating or not?

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I think we do have different goals.  You could argue that we both want
better certifications.  But, I would say that my goal is to make
certification more indicative of one's abilities, while your goal is to
eliminate cheaters.  I see nothing wrong with your goal, but it is not my

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Whatever, believe what you want.  While I'll admit that I don't mind an
occasional debate, try looking at your own track record.  And, I could
certainly say the same about your debating skills. But, that's getting a
little personal, now, isn't it?  That doesn't have anything to do with the
validity of certs.

So, go away.  If I'm just the little nobody with poor debating skills, then
I shouldn't threaten your position at all and there is no reason that I
should be wasting any more of your time.  Everyone else will see right
through my flawed logic.  Just keep in mind that the sooner you stop
debating, the sooner I will too :-P

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Re: Cisco possibilities

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This is the only thing I have time to respond to today...and I don't see any
other replies in your near future.

If you think adding locks to a vehicle in South Central LA will do you any good,
you're sadly mistaken.

Actually, because I was born and raised in the LA area, I know better. The ONLY
way to keep people from busting your windows to get into your vehicle is to keep
the windows rolled down. Is it still an invitation to steal...yes. But are
people going to steal something if they feel there is little to no value in what
they are is NOT as likely they will.

Stop trying to divert the problem. Anyone can cheat.

Do we ALL cheat? No.

Why Not? Because some of us have morals.

It is NOT because the CVs are "asking" for people to steal their exam materials,
so stop trying to make them out to be the bad guys.


Re: Cisco possibilities

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If you are going to argue, at least argue the points as I make them - when
did I say anything about a car?  Anyway, here is the plain simple version of
what I'm saying:

1) I think stealing is wrong, I think cheating is wrong.  I do not condone,
in any way, people cheating to get certifications.
2) Cheating has little to do with the value of certifications.  The value of
certifications is on par with what it was before braindumps were prevalent.
3) The certification vendors (Microsoft, Cisco, Comptia, etc...) do not
appear to do much to increase the value of these certifications.  Besides
the cheating, the exams do not test one's ability to perform the job.  While
you say don't make them out to be the bad guys, I don't see them trying too
hard to present a better solution.  It is my opinion that even if cheating
went away completely,  Certifications are not what they should be and would
not have much value beyond what they do today.  Let's just say that if they
came up with good testing methods, cheating wouldn't be a major issue at
4) EVERYBODY gives into temptation once in a while. I don't believe for a
second that you've never done something that, knowing full well, was wrong.
I consider myself a very moral person, but I am far from perfect and
occasionally do things that I know I shouldn't.  If you say that you don't
ever give into temptation, then you are either a liar or in denial - take
your pick.  Still, I don't think cheating is right, but don't play the
holier than thou act.  I don't buy it.



Re: Cisco possibilities
Conversation Closed.

Thanks for supporting CertGuard.


Re: Cisco possibilities
Supporting?  See, you still aren't following me :-P

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