Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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Are you guys still out there?

I have a friend who bought a Linksys router. He was having trouble with his
last router, and I recommend he buy a good Cisco router since he is serious
about his server, using comcast broadband I think, previously he said he was
using T1. He is using Macs, but he has Unix set up as the server, so the
problem is he wants to correct a problem he has, but has been unable to find
the fix. First he bought a new cable modem, and then he bought a new router.
I told him to get a good used Cisco router, but he went again for the cheap
home network router I guess.

He lives in New Jersey, and states close by can bring up his site and pages,
no problem, but people here in California like me, and other friends here
300 miles south have not been able to bring up his site either. Also
oversees friends say they also have trouble bringing up his site. It seems
to time out always. It tries to bring up the pages and then it times out
like 404. The root page I can bring up, but there is not content on it
anyway for a real test. One of his pages which has an interview on it with
several photos always times out for me. I can ping and tracert, but it
always seems to time out just near its source before. I completed a trace
recently, but it stills had problems with his pages and such.

I am thinking this is a limitation of a cheap router, and doesn't have
anywhere near the capabilities of  a Cisco router. Would a bottom line used
Cisco router be the fix? Is Linksys really able to route connections
worldwide in robust manner? I wouldn't think so. This is basically the type
I think that Good Guys or Best Buy sells.

Any clues on this, what the fix might be in his settings, or is this just
the limitations of a cheap router?

thanks,

SM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?
I am neither Bernie nor Hansang Bae, but it's an intriguing problem, so I'll
take a stab at it.

If users in "states close by can bring up his site and pages, no problem",
then I doubt the problem is in the router - there is no difference in
transferring content from a user one block away or one continent away - the
router doesn't care.

I would be curious to know if the users who are able to access the content
are all on the same provider's network, I.e. Comcast Cablevision.  If the
"cans" are on Comcast and the "can'ts" aren't, then it suggests the problem
occurs when the traffic has to travel off-net.

Outside of an on-net vs off-net issue, it almost sounds like a regional
routing issue, like the traffic is being subjected to poor routing,
resulting in really high latency, resulting in content timeout.  How many
hops did your traceroute go through, and what kind of hop-to-hop intervals
did you see?

Of course, anyone in this group who understands the issues better than do I,
please feel free to jump in and flame me - I'm old enough & experienced
enough to have developed a tolerance to heat, lol!

mjt

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Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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I'll
the
problem

I will ask for stats on this and get back to you ASAP.
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22 hops

I posted the trace below. Also this is the root that comes up, and then the
second address doesn not come up, but times out. Can you bring up the 2nd
address from your location? I also tried the 2nd address from the public
library and it was a no go. My friends in Italy and Holland say the link
does not come up. Also I live near Yosemite, and my friends in Santa Barbara
cannot bring up the link either, but the site is in New Jersey, and a friend
in Altoona Penn, said it comes up fine.

Root...
http://www.penn-gate.com

2nd...
http://www.penn-gate.com/lynngaggioli_roadie/gaggioli.html

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I,

thanks,
SM

Microsoft Windows 2000 [Version 5.00.2195]
(C) Copyright 1985-2000 Microsoft Corp.

C:\\>tracert http://www.penn-gate.com

Tracing route to http://www.penn-gate.com [68.39.19.174]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  2   130 ms   130 ms   130 ms  as-03.mariposa.sti.net [64.118.106.6]
  3   121 ms   130 ms   130 ms  641181061.sierratel.com [64.118.106.1]
  4   131 ms   120 ms   130 ms  6411898245.sierratel.com [64.118.98.245]
  5   120 ms   140 ms   130 ms  sl-gw25-stk-4-0-TS1.sprintlink.net
[160.81.8.137
]
  6   130 ms   130 ms   140 ms  sl-bb20-stk-8-1.sprintlink.net
[144.232.4.217]
  7   140 ms   140 ms   130 ms  sl-bb20-sj-9-0.sprintlink.net
[144.232.20.99]
  8   130 ms   130 ms   130 ms  sl-bb25-sj-13-0.sprintlink.net
[144.232.3.198]
  9   150 ms   140 ms   141 ms  sl-st21-sj-12-0.sprintlink.net
[144.232.9.240]
 10   150 ms   141 ms   130 ms  144.232.9.206
 11   210 ms   220 ms   211 ms  tbr1-p012101.sffca.ip.att.net [12.123.12.17]
 12   220 ms   210 ms   231 ms  tbr1-cl1.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.122.10.5]
 13   211 ms   220 ms   220 ms  tbr2-cl22.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.122.9.134]
 14   210 ms   221 ms   220 ms  tbr2-cl3641.phlpa.ip.att.net [12.122.10.94]
 15   200 ms   210 ms   211 ms  gar3-p390.phlpa.ip.att.net [12.123.137.213]
 16   211 ms   220 ms   220 ms  12.118.114.50
 17   361 ms     *      210 ms  po-80-ar01.wallingford.pa.panjde.comcast.net
[68
.86.208.30]
 18   220 ms   200 ms   211 ms  po-90-ar01.audubon.nj.panjde.comcast.net
[68.86.
208.25]
 19   201 ms   210 ms   200 ms  po-90-ur02.audubon.nj.panjde.comcast.net
[68.86.
210.177]
 20   191 ms   200 ms   220 ms  po-90-ur01.clementon.nj.panjde.comcast.net
[68.8
6.210.213]
 21   210 ms   210 ms   211 ms  po-90-ur01.medford.nj.panjde.comcast.net
[68.86.
210.209]
 22     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 23   210 ms   200 ms   201 ms  c-68-39-19-174.hsd1.nj.comcast.net
[68.39.19.174
]

Trace complete.

C:\\>



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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Both these pages load in under 4 seconds ... and I'm in Australia using
Telstra BigPond.  As far as the router goes, as Mike said, it doesn't care
where the final destination is ... in reality unless it's the final hop it
doesn't really know.

There could be timeout issues with a low end router if it's struggling to
keep up with the load but if it's at the end of a T1 that shouldn't be the
problem.

I'd follow up on Mike's suggestion and find out where the "can's" and
"cant's" are located and see if there's a comon denominator.  Also confirm
the actual HTTP response code.  From Wikipedia ...

"he 404 or Not Found error message is an HTTP standard response code
indicating that the client was able to communicate with the server, but the
server either could not find what was requested, or it was configured not to
fulfill the request and not reveal the reason why. 404 errors should not be
confused with "server not found" or similar errors, in which a connection to
the destination server cannot be made at all."

BernieM ... not the Bernie you were seeking though.  He's the real deal ...
especially when it comes to Frame-Relay.



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?
Adding my post at bottom -- mjt

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The home page loaded fairly quickly for me; the Gaggioli page not so quick,
but it did load.  I'm on AT&T ADSL (128k/768k) in Columbus, OH.  So that,
along with BernieM's results from Australia, tends to reduce the likelihood
that this is an off-net issue or a regional routing issue.

BernieM had a good suggestion - ask your friend to take a look at the server
itself and make sure it's not having issues, maybe with the requesting
client?  I'm running WinXP with IE7.0.  But, fair warning - you'll need to
jump to a MCSE group to follow that possibility!  ;-)

mjt


Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?


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Yes, but I wonder about any possible limitations of cheap home style routers
like Linksys versus a robust Cisco router with more features and better
routing dynamics worldwide? Would you be surprised if he changed to a Cisco
router and things cleared up? I mean Linksys, come on, hey?
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There is certainly a time out issue. It's on a btroadband connection, cable
modem with comcast. Previously he used a T1. However the page tries to load
and then times out with server not found. Strange how the page continues to
send packets after the server not found page is given. It still tries to
load the data for at least a minute. I can see the leds on my hub blinking,
so I know its still sending data. It finally gives up sending data about 2
minutes max after the page is given with server not found. At best in the
past, once I was able to bring up the text but the photos never completely
loaded, but would time out with half the photos loaded, but I haven't been
able to bring anything up in months. Also my friends in Santa Barbara 300
miles away cannot bring up the pages, neither can my friends in Holland,
Italy or Switzerland.

So that's pretty strange, hey?

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Yes, divide and conquer.
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the
to
be
to

Yes, its server not found, not 404, excuse me. But clearly packets have been
sent, a good deal I would think, but the page always times out. Even the
public library here which has a T1 cannot bring up his pages, so there are
no problems with my end as a user.
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...

Yeah, Bernie was smart guy, and Hansang doesn't seem to be around either.
CCIE I believe. NRF might still be out there.

thanks,
SM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?
Replies embedded - mjt

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I'm using a Linksys DSL router, have had it for a few years, although I
don't have any servers on the LAN, just a couple of PCs.  I did have a
couple of things your friend might check, though.

My Linksys has tabs for both dynamic and static routing - make sure that's
all disabled.  If those features are disabled, make sure there are no
content filters.  I doubt there are, since several people have been able to
access the web pages: BernieM from Australia, Gabriele from Italy, Mike
Jones from wherever, and myself from Columbus, OH.

My Linksys also has a log file for incoming and outgoing requests - can he
enable that and see if your request is even getting to that router?

You really need to get away from the idea that a Cisco will route better
than the Linksys.  If the Linksys can get traffic to the Comcast cable
modem, it can go anywhere in the world.  Sure, they're low-end, but for most
home users, they're more than capable.

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Just to clarify - the ONLY change has been from T1 to cable, right?  And
while he was on the T1, none of these problems existed?

I doubt it's a bandwidth issue, since most cable providers hype the fact
that their connections are even faster than T1.

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This almost sounds like a client/server issue, but I assume you're not
having these issues accessing other web sites.

Let us know what happens with my suggestions, above, but my sense is that
we're running out of things to check.  Sure, if all else fails, you can try
to get your friend to buy a Cisco, but I would be surprised if that took
care of these issues.

Good luck, though.

mjt


Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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Waiting for that answer.


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T1 to cable, static to dynamic, but then back to static again, and he thinks
an additional static will clear things up.
He thinks the problem occured when he went from Static to dynamic IP. He
says he obtained one static IP but he thinks the time out problem will be
fixed if he obtains another static IP.

SM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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He can control that at the server end, not the router.  But yes, he will
obtain a log when he gets back
home.

I went to the library today. They do use a T1. Now while the Lynn G page
loaded, it didn't load very fast, as someone else stated as well, but when I
tried to load the two pages below, Andrea started to load and then timed
out. When I click back it tried to reload the page, after clicking back and
forth 4 times it finally loaded most of the page but then finally completely
timed out. The Jeanson page loaded only once, but the some images loaded
again, only half way. The result was the text was fully loaded, some images
loaded fully and many other images only loaded halfway. At home when I tried
on Lynn's page, it would time out with server not found, but the server
continues to try to send data because I can see the leds on the hub
flashing, so its like its still trying to load the page after the browser
has timed out, very odd. I have never seen an effect like that in all my
years of computing, at least I don't think so, not quite like that. It seems
like some kind of latency issue, I guess. Its not a client issue, because
his site is the only site I have trouble with besides Rochelle Gilmore, but
we don't need to bother with her right now. Even though I am behind a
firewall using Linux, networked from a Windows box to the Linux box, with
the Linux box as the dialup connection, I have never had problems accessing
other sites. Yes, that's right, stone age dialup, DSL is actually 5 dollars
cheaper, but I haven't change yet. I only recentley obtained a version of
Linux that could do connection sharing with DSL and still the firewall is
another issue, but we are getting off topic here. Speaking of routers, I
should have one myself! However the public library had the same problems as
me pretty much, so the client issue is nill!!

SM

http://www.penn-gate.com/ratkovic/ratkovic.html

http://www.penn-gate.com/jeanson_interview/jeanson.html



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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Even though he says he will take a look at the router later, he really meant
yet again, as we are looking at it now. He just bought the router, so he
will adjust some settings when he gets home.

He says...

The latency issue exists because the server needs a second static IP.  And
for some reason, routing through ports takes longer and causes these
delays/timeouts.

There are 3 solutions to this problem that I have to undertake:

1.  Upgrade the server software.   This is a major thing.  I anticipate
doing this by April.
2.  Upgrade the OS to the latest version which supposedly helps with an MTU
issue.  I will do this
this week.
3.  Static IP

If these 3 things don't fix the problem, then I will take a closer look at
the router and its
settings, including upgrading the router to something more substantial.

SM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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What do you mean by "better routing dynamics" ... worldwide?

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Yes I would be surprised but what model of Linksys are we talking about.  I
want to look up the specs.

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Sorry i mis read the original post.  I thought he was now using a T1.   Are
you able to confirm the duplex setting of the cable modem-to-router
connection?

BernieM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?


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I

He is not home at the moment, so he can't get the model number, but I did
ask. Perhaps when he returns home.

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Are

I'll ask.

thanks,
SM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?


Another bit...

Even though he says he will take a look at the router later, he really meant
yet again, as we are looking at it now. He just bought the router, so he
will adjust some settings when he gets home.

He says...

The latency issue exists because the server needs a second static IP.  And
for some reason, routing through ports takes longer and causes these
delays/timeouts.

There are 3 solutions to this problem that I have to undertake:

1.  Upgrade the server software.   This is a major thing.  I anticipate
doing this by April.
2.  Upgrade the OS to the latest version which supposedly helps with an MTU
issue.  I will do this
this week.
3.  Static IP

If these 3 things don't fix the problem, then I will take a closer look at
the router and its
settings, including upgrading the router to something more substantial.



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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It's nothing to do with 'routing'.  A router connected to a cable modem
doesn't even run a routing protocol ... it's working with a single default
route.

"Throughput" is what's going to make the difference.  What model linksys
does he have?

BernieM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?


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I have asked for that (model), but he can't get that number until he returns
home. As for Linksys, Google turns up many links for problems with Linksys
routers and various issues. Some have dumped them in favor of Netgear or
something else. I found numerous links on connection and timing out issues,
ect. Similar problems, so it wouldn't surprise me if the router had some
issues, but I don't know, that's why I am here. Sure, I do question the
performance of Linksys compared to Cisco. It is after all, just a cheap home
router. Sure it works good for some, but not all, there seems to be issues
with Linksys based on performance from what I have read.

thanks,
SM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?


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I can't get the model number until he comes back from shooting a wildlife
series.

My friend wrote this..

The MTU is set to 1500 on both the server and router.  I will first get a
second static IP address.  My guess is that will fix all this.

As for me personally...

I posted this above, but again here.

I went to the library today. They do use a T1. Now while the Lynn G page
loaded, it didn't load very fast, as someone else stated as well, but when I
tried to load the two pages below, Andrea started to load and then timed
out. When I click back it tried to reload the page, after clicking back and
forth 4 times it finally loaded most of the page but then finally completely
timed out. The Jeanson page loaded only once, but the some images loaded
again, only half way. The result was the text was fully loaded, some images
loaded fully and many other images only loaded halfway. At home when I tried
on Lynn's page, it would time out with server not found, but the server
continues to try to send data because I can see the leds on the hub
flashing, so its like its still trying to load the page after the browser
has timed out, very odd. I have never seen an effect like that in all my
years of computing, at least I don't think so, not quite like that. It seems
like some kind of latency issue, I guess. Its not a client issue, because
his site is the only site I have trouble with besides Rochelle Gilmore, but
we don't need to bother with her right now. Even though I am behind a
firewall using Linux, networked from a Windows box to the Linux box, with
the Linux box as the dialup connection, I have never had problems accessing
other sites. Yes, that's right, stone age dialup, DSL is actually 5 dollars
cheaper, but I haven't change yet. I only recentley obtained a version of
Linux that could do connection sharing with DSL and still the firewall is
another issue, but we are getting off topic here. Speaking of routers, I
should have one myself! However the public library had the same problems as
me pretty much, so the client issue is nill!!

SM

http://www.penn-gate.com/ratkovic/ratkovic.html

http://www.penn-gate.com/jeanson_interview/jeanson.html



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?
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Hi,

Both links open just fine and pretty fast ( ~92KB/s )

Following there are a traceroute and a pathping

  1     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  192.168.0.254
  2    48 ms    45 ms    46 ms  192.168.100.1
  3    46 ms    46 ms    46 ms
host148-193-static.20-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it [80.20.193.148]
  4    55 ms    55 ms    54 ms  r-mi258-r-ts21.opb.interbusiness.it
[85.36.8.49]
  5    54 ms    52 ms    53 ms  r-mi226-crs-mi003.opb.interbusiness.it
[85.36.9.101]
  6    53 ms    52 ms    54 ms  mil25-ibs-resid-15-it.mil.seabone.net
[195.22.205.157]
  7   143 ms   144 ms   144 ms  sl-gw37-nyc-2-0.sprintlink.net
[160.81.189.73]
  8   144 ms   145 ms   145 ms  sl-bb21-nyc-4-0.sprintlink.net
[144.232.13.65]
  9   146 ms   145 ms   145 ms  sl-bb25-nyc-11-0.sprintlink.net
[144.232.13.1]
 10   149 ms   149 ms   149 ms  sl-bb26-nyc-10-0.sprintlink.net
[144.232.13.190]
 11   145 ms   146 ms   145 ms  144.232.8.194
 12   150 ms   150 ms   150 ms  tbr1-p012204.sl9mo.ip.att.net [12.122.82.22]
 13   150 ms   151 ms   150 ms  tbr1-cl8.phlpa.ip.att.net [12.122.2.18]
 14   152 ms   151 ms   152 ms  gar3-p300.phlpa.ip.att.net [12.123.137.209]
 15   150 ms   150 ms   149 ms  12.118.114.50
 16   150 ms   150 ms   151 ms  po-80-ar01.wallingford.pa.panjde.comcast.net
[68.86.208.30]
 17   153 ms   153 ms   152 ms  po-90-ar01.audubon.nj.panjde.comcast.net
[68.86.208.25]
 18   155 ms   154 ms   154 ms  po-90-ur02.audubon.nj.panjde.comcast.net
[68.86.210.177]
 19   151 ms   151 ms   152 ms  po-90-ur01.clementon.nj.panjde.comcast.net
[68.86.210.213]
 20   154 ms   155 ms   154 ms  po-90-ur01.medford.nj.panjde.comcast.net
[68.86.210.209]
 21     *        *        *     Request Timeout..
 22   158 ms   158 ms   158 ms  c-68-39-19-174.hsd1.nj.comcast.net
[68.39.19.174]

------------------------------------

Hop  RTT    Lost/Sent= Lost pck/Sent=percent
  0                                           192.168.0.100
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  1    1ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  192.168.0.254
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  2   44ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  192.168.100.1
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  3   44ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  80.20.193.148
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  4   51ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  85.36.8.49
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  5   51ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  85.36.9.101
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  6  175ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  195.22.205.157
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  7  143ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  160.81.189.73
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  8  147ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  144.232.13.65
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
  9  150ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  144.232.13.1
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 10  153ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  144.232.13.190
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 11  145ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  144.232.8.194
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 12  ---     100/ 100 =100%   100/ 100 =100%  12.122.82.22
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 13  ---     100/ 100 =100%   100/ 100 =100%  12.122.2.18
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 14  ---     100/ 100 =100%   100/ 100 =100%  12.123.137.209
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 15  156ms     1/ 100 =  1%     1/ 100 =  1%  12.118.114.50
                                 0/ 100 =  0%   |
 16  156ms     3/ 100 =  3%     3/ 100 =  3%  68.86.208.30
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 17  154ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  68.86.208.25
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 18  154ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  68.86.210.177
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 19  151ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  68.86.210.213
                                0/ 100 =  0%   |
 20  153ms     0/ 100 =  0%     0/ 100 =  0%  68.86.210.209
                              100/ 100 =100%   |
 21  ---     100/ 100 =100%     0/ 100 =  0%  0.0.0.0


Regards,
Gabriele



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?
I am not Hansang Bae either, but I work for him in the real world, so
I know what he would probably say.  :)

This sounds like a classic Path MTU discovery problem.  I would try
lowering the MTU on a client in Asia to see if it fixes the issue.

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Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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thanks,
SM



Re: Bernie or Hansang Bae?

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You know, he thinks adding another static IP would fix this. He wrote...

The MTU is set to 1500 on both the server and router.  I will first get a
second static IP address.  My guess
is that will fix all this.

SM



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