Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling

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I have a customer who just bought an existing house that has a basic
structured wiring system installed.  Unfortunately, the previous owner
had the basement finished using drywall on the ceiling.  Any tips on
adding new cables to the system without taring up the drywall would be
appreciated.



Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


Wireless



Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


Unfortunately they want to add video/coax outlets, not data.  When I
couldn't get there soon enough, they setup a wireless network as a
temporary solution for Internet sharing.  When I told them that a wired
solution would not benefit them in terms of Internet connection speed,
they decided to make the wireless permanent.

Is there any possibility of using the existing UTP (currently wired for
telephone only) for video distribution?



Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


>Unfortunately they want to add video/coax outlets, not data.  When I
>couldn't get there soon enough, they setup a wireless network as a
>temporary solution for Internet sharing.  When I told them that a wired
>solution would not benefit them in terms of Internet connection speed,
>they decided to make the wireless permanent.
>
>Is there any possibility of using the existing UTP (currently wired for
>telephone only) for video distribution?
>

Yes, use the phone cable as fishtape for a coax and CAT5 bundle. (sorry)

Look it the gadget catalogs for wireless video solutions.  


--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.


Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


Michael Quinlan wrote:




> Unfortunately they want to add video/coax outlets, not data.  When I
> couldn't get there soon enough, they setup a wireless network as a
> temporary solution for Internet sharing.  When I told them that a wired
> solution would not benefit them in terms of Internet connection speed,
> they decided to make the wireless permanent.

> Is there any possibility of using the existing UTP (currently wired for
> telephone only) for video distribution?

Yes you can use CAT5 cables for video distribution. The actual solution
will depend on whether you are going to be transmitting a high frequency
TV signal or a low frequency video signal. The latter is a bit easier to
implement using a pair of inexpensive baluns (one sample of video baluns
is linked from this page: http://www.cabling-design.com/helpdesk/)
TV distribution, although possible is not without limitations - you can
only send the first 50 channels or so due to high frequency attenuation
profile of a CAT5 cable.

Good luck!

--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------




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Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


UTP doesn't provide the shielding necessary for CATV.  Not just
necessary, but required by the FCC.  Those video baluns are intended for
baseband video.


CIAO!

Ed N.

Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com) wrote:
> Yes you can use CAT5 cables for video distribution. The actual solution
> will depend on whether you are going to be transmitting a high frequency
> TV signal or a low frequency video signal. The latter is a bit easier to
> implement using a pair of inexpensive baluns (one sample of video baluns
> is linked from this page: http://www.cabling-design.com/helpdesk/)
> TV distribution, although possible is not without limitations - you can
> only send the first 50 channels or so due to high frequency attenuation
> profile of a CAT5 cable.
>
> Good luck!
>


Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling



> UTP doesn't provide the shielding necessary for CATV.  Not just
> necessary, but required by the FCC.  Those video baluns are intended
> for baseband video.

There are also baluns on the market designed for broadband video!
Modern UTP wiring can be used to carry broadband video succesfully.
And also meet radioation requirements of many countries.
There are companies marketing such solutions.

Some more information van be found at
http://www.epanorama.net/links/wire_av.html#utpvideo

 
>
> CIAO!
>
> Ed N.
>
> Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com) wrote:
> > Yes you can use CAT5 cables for video distribution. The actual solution
> > will depend on whether you are going to be transmitting a high frequency
> > TV signal or a low frequency video signal. The latter is a bit easier to
> > implement using a pair of inexpensive baluns (one sample of video baluns
> > is linked from this page: http://www.cabling-design.com/helpdesk/)
> > TV distribution, although possible is not without limitations - you
> > can
> > only send the first 50 channels or so due to high frequency attenuation
> > profile of a CAT5 cable.
> > Good luck!
> >

--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then /)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net /


Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


Broadband video (CATV) can be transmitted over UTP, absolutely.  And if
you are in an area where there are no local broadcast radio or
television signals (I don't mean just 10 or 20 miles away, but quite a
ways further than that), you'll be just fine.  Anything closer than
that, and you'll see multiple images on VHF locals, cross-hatch and
other noise in the upper teens through lower 20s.  Channels 95-97 will
have loads of garbage (FM radio), and if there are broadcast UHF
channels, cable channels ~65 and up will have problems.  It just kind of
goes along with inadequate shielding.

If a house connected to a CATV system 75 miles away from TV transmitters
has ghosting on locals due to a loose connector at the pole (ingress),
why would one think that there would be no ingress with UTP (which has a
whole lot less shielding than a loose connector).


CIAO!

Ed

Tomi Holger Engdahl wrote:
> There are also baluns on the market designed for broadband video!
> Modern UTP wiring can be used to carry broadband video succesfully.
> And also meet radioation requirements of many countries.
> There are companies marketing such solutions.
>
> Some more information van be found at
> http://www.epanorama.net/links/wire_av.html#utpvideo
>
>  
>


Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


>
> If a house connected to a CATV system 75 miles away from TV transmitters
> has ghosting on locals due to a loose connector at the pole (ingress),
> why would one think that there would be no ingress with UTP (which has a
> whole lot less shielding than a loose connector).

Because CATV is unbalanced and thus highly susceptible to ingress
whereas UTP is balanced and thus highly immune to ingress?

-Larry Jones

My brain is trying to kill me. -- Calvin


Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


lawrence.jones@ugs.com writes:

> >
> > If a house connected to a CATV system 75 miles away from TV transmitters
> > has ghosting on locals due to a loose connector at the pole (ingress),
> > why would one think that there would be no ingress with UTP (which has a
> > whole lot less shielding than a loose connector).
>
> Because CATV is unbalanced and thus highly susceptible to ingress
> whereas UTP is balanced and thus highly immune to ingress?

CATV signal is normally transported as unbalanced signal ovet
75 ohm cable. It can be transported through balanced medium as
well if the medium has suitable characteristics (low enough
high frequency attenuation, good enough shielding / balance etc.)
and you have a suitable aapter to convert 75 ohm signal to
that other form (match impedance and do unbalanced-balanced
conversion).

In the old days (and maybe even sometimes nowadays) twinlead wire
is used to transport TV antenna signals (at least at VHF
frequencies). That twinlead wire is 300 ohm balanced wire pair.
75 ohm to 300 ohm balun transformers (for example
Radio Shack cat. #'s 15-1140 and 15-1253 or MCM #33-050 and #33-010)
are use when this kind of cable needs to be connected to
something that uses 75 ohm coaxial interface (modern equipment,
cable TV network etc..)

In the same way 100 ohms UTP wiring can be used to carry
antenna signal in the balanced format. All you need is
low ernough loss cable (CAT5 for short distances, CAT5e and CAT6
have lower losses) and suitable 75 ohm to 100 ohm balun adapter.
The CAT5 or higher UTP wiring can carry RF signals
quite well. The wires are quite near each other, tightly
twisted together and reasonably well balanced (very similar
resistances and capacitances), which means that properly
balanced signal does not leak out mich from the cable and
the cable is not easy to pick up interference
(if you try to push unbalanced signal directly to UTP
those "shielding" properties of balanced pair are lost,
meaning cable will radiate considerable amount of
RF signal out and pick up RFI noise from outside sources
considerably). The loss of the typical CAT5 cable is considerably
higher that with the cables orginally designed to carry
RF signals (RG6 coax, RG59 coax, twinlead), but still
in range that it can be used to carry antenna signal
tens of meters, 100 meters might be too much for highest
frequencies to be useable anymore. So for cable TV connection
you need a sutiable 75 ohm to 100 ohm balun converter.
Here is one product that claims to do the needed conversion:
http://www.svideo.com/coaxbalun.html
"VideoEase CATV Balun allows traditional 75-ohm coaxial cable to be
replaced by one-pair Unshielded Twisted Pair (UTP) in the CATV, VHF
and FM environments in certain applications."


--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then /)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net /


Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


Thanks for giving me another fine example of theory that doesn't work.

I bought a couple of video baluns.  The description reads:

FEATURES & SPECIFICATION
Allows traditional 75 ohm coaxial cable to be replaced by one-pair UTP
in the CATV, VHF and FM video signal.
Saves extra cost of expensive and space-consuming coax cable and
connects RF video equipment to TV, monitors, etc shortly.
100% tested for reliability & durability to quarantee signal integrity.
Command Rejection: -20dB or higher at 40-500MHz.
Insertion Loss: CATV channels 2-61 <= 3db.
Return Loss: -18dB or higher to 10-550 MHz.
Bandwidth: 5 MHz to 550 MHz.
Distance(Max): 100M via Cat5 UTP.


Signal level at my outlet is ~11dBmV.

Connected 1 balun to the outlet in my TV room and the other to my
digital cable box.  Then I connected them with an old 14' CAT5 patch
cord.  Tried it with a new, 7' CAT5e patch cord still in the bag.  Both
cables yielded comparable results, which were horrible.  Not 1 of my
locals was watchable (multiple images that were so bad that sometimes
the DCT couldn't even process the signal) and there was not 1 channel
(out of ~70 analog) that was even acceptable.  Cable channels in the mid
60s through mid 70s where there is a local UHF channel occupying part of
the same bandwidth can't even be processed.  No picture.  Channels
95-97, which are in the broadcast FM band, were the same.  No picture.
Not 1 digital channel could even be processed at all.  Nothing at all on
any of the ~190 digital channels to which I subscribe (including Video
on Demand, of course).

I've attached some JPEGs for your viewing pleasure.  In the event that
the attachments don't go through, they can also be seen at
<http://www.cencom94.com/gpage.html12.html .

Perhaps one of these days soon I'll pull out my SLM and check the
linearity of that portion of the system, though I'm not expecting much
positive from that, either.



CIAO!

Ed N.

lawrence.jones@ugs.com wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it


Vidoe signals over UTP (was Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling)



> Unfortunately they want to add video/coax outlets, not data.  When I
> couldn't get there soon enough, they setup a wireless network as a
> temporary solution for Internet sharing.  When I told them that a wired
> solution would not benefit them in terms of Internet connection speed,
> they decided to make the wireless permanent.
>
> Is there any possibility of using the existing UTP (currently wired for
> telephone only) for video distribution?

The UTP wiring used on modern structured cabling system can be used
to carry variopus video signals. Modern CAT5e and CA6 wiring can
quite easily carry wide variety of signal with suitable adapters.
The UTP can carry nicely baseband video (composite video, S-video,
component video, RGB etc..), audio signals, digital audio,
RF video (antenna/cable TV signals).

The secret to sending signals over UTP is to balance them well in
order to limit both radiation and noise pick up. This kind of
unshielded twisted pair wiring method is used in many CCTV
applications nowadays to use existing in-house twisted pair wiring
instead of installing new coaxial cable for the CCTV camera. For at
least 20 years products have been available capable of transmitting
video using UTP wire.

Video signal can be adapted to UTP wiring using a special balun
transformer between BNC video connector and the wisted pair
wiring. This converter converts the unbalanced audio signal to
balanced signal which nicely travels through the cable. A similar
transformer can be used on the other end of the cable to convert the
video signal back to unbalanced format which fits to BNC
connector. There are both passive solutions (balun transformers) and
active converters available on the market for this application.

CAT5 cable is not great stuff for video signals, but with suitable
adapters it can work well. The converter will convert the unbalanced
video signal to the balanced signal that can nicely go though the
twisted pair cable without picking up too much noise or radiating too
much interference. The converter will also make more or less perfect
impedance matching between 75 ohm video system impedance and around
100 ohm impedance of the wiring.

One of the most demanding applications on the market today is
broadband video, commonly known as CATV or cable television. It
carries a broad range of signals extending from 54 MHz to beyond 600
MHz (usually up to around 900 MHz). Coaxial cable (RG-59 or RG-6) is
commonly used for these applications. There are also some products for
running broadband RF video through CAT5 or better twisted pair wiring.
The solution is to use a small transformer to convert from an
unbalanced to a balanced signal on the sending end and and vice-versa
on the receiving end. Baluns also make the necessary impedance
transformation between coaxial cable (75 ohms) and twisted pair wiring
(100 ohms). The use of CAT 5 for wireband RF video has been pretty
limited because of quite high attenuation, especially at higher
frequencies. The standard specifies attenuation of 24 dB per 100
meters of CAT5 cable, and when frequencies go higher, the attenuation
increases quicly. But the higher quality cables, like CAT5e and CAT6,
reduce the attenuation considerably. In practice with the suitable
amplifiers and suitable adapters you can run the cable TV or
TV antenna RF signal succesfully from tens of meters (or up to
100 meters on good conditions) through modern UTP wiring.

Unshielded twisted pair is suitable cable to carry balanced signals
(balanced audio interfaces in professional equipment), but is far from
optimal for unbalanced  signals (like home hifi audio interfaces with
RCA connductors). To properly transfer unbalanced signal over UTP
thesignals need to be balanced (there are baluns for this).
If you need to carry digital audio signals, then the signals from
coaxial S/PDIF interface can be treated in the same way as video
signals (you can use video BNC to UTP adapters for them).

One word to the wise: not all Cat5 converters are alike. Not all of
them are good and there is a quality difference. They don't all use
the same technology to do the signal conversion and you need to
compare which one is good enough for your application.

When transmitting audio and video signals through twisted pair wiring,
use the adapters from the same manufacturer on the both ends of the
cable. There are no generic standards how this kind of adapters work,
so adapters from different manufacturers are most propably not
compatible with each other.


Here are some links on this topic:
http://www.epanorama.net/links/wire_av.html#utpvideo
http://www.nordx.com/public/htmen/pdf/Video_over_Twisted_Pair_Cabling.pdf
http://www.kat5.tv /
http://www.lexel.fi /
http://www.svideo.com/coaxbalun.html
http://www.infinity-cable.com/icp_balun_catv.htm

--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then /)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net /


Re: Fishing tips for finished basement without drop ceiling


Michael Quinlan wrote:


> I have a customer who just bought an existing house that has a basic
> structured wiring system installed.  Unfortunately, the previous owner
> had the basement finished using drywall on the ceiling.  Any tips on
> adding new cables to the system without taring up the drywall would be
> appreciated.

You can try to use existing cables as pull strings: tie an actual pull
string to the end of the cable and pull it back as far as you can, and
then use the real pull string to pull both old and new cables back in
place. Also, cut yourself access holes in strategic places in the ceiling.
Places where you'd need to change direction of pulling, branch a cable out
of a bundle etc.

Use generous amount of color matching raceway if cannot pull above the
closed ceiling.

Also, since a raceway is surely bulkier than the cable it conceals, in
some cases it makes sense to use just a color matching cable and hide it
under (above/behind/whatever works) decorative elements like borders and
baseboards.

Improvise ;-)
 
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------




##-----------------------------------------------##

Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archive

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no-spam read and post WWW interface to your favorite newsgroup -

comp.dcom.cabling - 1428 messages and counting!

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